Skyrim

[MadImmortalMan]

I want to bring back the Numidium, slay the Thalmor and rule as a god-king.

[grumbler]

The player wasn't there during the Great War iirc. And if I'm correct the player's dragonspeach capabilities far outstrip those of the others. Ulfric is no Tiber Septim.

The player wasn't even born during the Great War, it seems.  And Ulfric started his revolt before even the player knew he could speak Dragonspeak.   Ulfric (and presumably others) could speak Dragonspeak, though, and they lost to the Thalmor.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The player wasn't there during the Great War iirc. And if I'm correct the player's dragonspeach capabilities far outstrip those of the others. Ulfric is no Tiber Septim.

The player wasn't even born during the Great War, it seems.  And Ulfric started his revolt before even the player knew he could speak Dragonspeak.   Ulfric (and presumably others) could speak Dragonspeak, though, and they lost to the Thalmor.

hence the player's abilities... it's probably the element that tips the scale against the thalmor.
Of course Bethesda could just have Vvardenfell explode again. Who knows.

[DontSayBanana]

I dunno- there's a pretty hefty dose of resentment in Skyrim toward the Thalmor.  There's just about nothing in-game that depicts them in a positive light, even if you play as a high elf, and that kind of vitriol probably isn't accidental.

Also, why is the worship of Talos such a hot issue?  Sounds like a potential plot point for something going down between the Thalmor and the Empire.

[grumbler]

I dunno- there's a pretty hefty dose of resentment in Skyrim toward the Thalmor.  There's just about nothing in-game that depicts them in a positive light, even if you play as a high elf, and that kind of vitriol probably isn't accidental.

Agreed.  As I noted, you can't be friendly with the Thalmor.  They are the Bad Guys.

Also, why is the worship of Talos such a hot issue?  Sounds like a potential plot point for something going down between the Thalmor and the Empire.

In game terms the Talos-worship issue is how the Thalmor split elements in Skyrim off from the Empire.  People like them wouldn't really care about it, but it makes for a nice wedge issue they could insert by virtue of effectively winning the Great War and so being able to impose uncomfortable positions on the Empire.

Some of the Nords care because it is in the nature of Nords to be highly sensitive to such slurs, and some pretend to care because they want to overthrow the Empire (and hope somehow to avoid getting waxed by the Thalmor, in much the manner as the Redguards avoided it).

So I could see add-on games with the PC having to reunite the Imperials and Ulric's boys, and then settling issues between the Empire and the Redguards.

[DontSayBanana]

Mod question.  Not looking for something heavily gameplay-enhancing, but I'm pretty happy with my current outfit and my current weapon choices.  Any of you guys tried Val's Crafting Meltdown?  It'd be nice to take all those bloody iron greatswords I keep getting and melt them down to something a little more usable...

[MadImmortalMan]

In game terms the Talos-worship issue is how the Thalmor split elements in Skyrim off from the Empire.  People like them wouldn't really care about it, but it makes for a nice wedge issue they could insert by virtue of effectively winning the Great War and so being able to impose uncomfortable positions on the Empire.

AKA, it's a plot point. I do hope they flesh out the Thalmors' motivations behind it more. Just serving as a wedge doesn't really strike me as a compelling enough reason to enforce it to the level they demand. If I were writing this, there would be a further agenda behind it.

[Valmy]

AKA, it's a plot point. I do hope they flesh out the Thalmors' motivations behind it more. Just serving as a wedge doesn't really strike me as a compelling enough reason to enforce it to the level they demand. If I were writing this, there would be a further agenda behind it.

I thought the motivation was clear lorewise.  The entire point of the Thalmor's existance is to..well..do away with what Talos represents.

Is this a spoiler?  Can we talk about this here?

[grumbler]

AKA, it's a plot point. I do hope they flesh out the Thalmors' motivations behind it more. Just serving as a wedge doesn't really strike me as a compelling enough reason to enforce it to the level they demand. If I were writing this, there would be a further agenda behind it.

Not sure what this all means.  Yes, it is a plot point, just like everything else in the game.  It seems to me that creating a wedge to separate the empire from its last ally it is compelling enough reason to demand a high level of enforcement of the ban on Talos worship; if the ban was merely pro forma, Skyrim wouldn't be engaged in a civil war.  Even at that, many pro-Imperial types in Skyrim seem to tolerate Talos worship, so enforcement isn't at the level the Thalmor demand.

There could be a further agenda behind the ban on Talos worship, but I would be disappointed were that true.  The politics of it work out so nicely now with the reasons we have been presented.  If it turns out that the Thalmor have some other agenda, then they just lucked into the fact that it split the traditionalist Nords from the empire, and that would be some weak shit.  I prefer my villains to be evil and efficient rather than simply evil and lucky.

[Valmy]

There could be a further agenda behind the ban on Talos worship, but I would be disappointed were that true.  The politics of it work out so nicely now with the reasons we have been presented.  If it turns out that the Thalmor have some other agenda, then they just lucked into the fact that it split the traditionalist Nords from the empire, and that would be some weak shit.  I prefer my villains to be evil and efficient rather than simply evil and lucky.

Well it is both.  The Thalmor also worked the treaty to split Hammerfell off from the Empire.  So they are evil and efficient.

But banning Talos also has another purpose as well that is central to their entire project.  After all my understanding is the High Elves do not give a crap about worldly power for its own sake, if they did they would be Dark Elves.

[DontSayBanana]

There could be a further agenda behind the ban on Talos worship, but I would be disappointed were that true.  The politics of it work out so nicely now with the reasons we have been presented.  If it turns out that the Thalmor have some other agenda, then they just lucked into the fact that it split the traditionalist Nords from the empire, and that would be some weak shit.  I prefer my villains to be evil and efficient rather than simply evil and lucky.

Sure, but there needs to be more elaboration on the Talos ban itself.  In any interface between society and government, there are loads of potential wedge issues that could be played more subtly (and supposedly, the Thalmor are all about subtlety) while still falling shy of a near-inquisition, which the Thalmor seem to be pressing for.

A political wedge would usually just fracture a society; a ban on religion could potentially shatter it, and complete dissolution would be awful heavy-handed for a simple conquest.

[grumbler]

I thought the motivation was clear lorewise.  The entire point of the Thalmor's existance is to..well..do away with what Talos represents.

Is this a spoiler?  Can we talk about this here?

Sort of... the Thalmor exist to promote the interests of the elves, as a race, and the Altmer in particular, as opposed to the interests of men.  Talos was a man, and that is one of the reasons for the Thalmor want to stop his worship, but there were other men after Talos who ruled over an empire that included the Summerset Isles.  The Mer are, of course, insulted by the idea that a man could become a god when Mer have not (and believe themselves, in fact, to be debased descendents of gods).  But, as stated above, I think the sudden Thalmor emphasis on banning Talos worship is a political, not theological, maneuver.  It is similar in that regard to the Thalmor demand of territory from hammerfell - land they knew they couldn't hold, but the coerced promised which forced the Redguards out of the empire.

None of this is spoiler stuff. It all happened before the start of Skyrim, and is public knowledge.

[grumbler]

Sure, but there needs to be more elaboration on the Talos ban itself.  In any interface between society and government, there are loads of potential wedge issues that could be played more subtly (and supposedly, the Thalmor are all about subtlety) while still falling shy of a near-inquisition, which the Thalmor seem to be pressing for.

A political wedge would usually just fracture a society; a ban on religion could potentially shatter it, and complete dissolution would be awful heavy-handed for a simple conquest.

You have once again confused me.  I have no idea what "a ban on religion could potentially shatter [a society] means in this context.  The worship of Talos isn't a central tenet of any "society" in Cyrodil of which i am aware.

The Thalmor pretend that they want the total annihilation of Talos worship because:
(1) this drives a wedge between the empire and the more traditionalist Nords like Ulric
(2) this forces the empire to use troops to hold key locations in Skyrim, well away from the Imperial/Alldmeri Dominion borders; and
(3) the ban gives the Thalmor an excuse to have "enforcement monitoring patrols" throughout Imperial lands (in stark contrast to the iron curtain that keeps Imperial agents out of the Dominion), able to spy, foment unrest, and generally weaken the Empire.

I don't think the Thalmor need any deeper reason than this; as I note , they would be disappointing if they got all of these advantages merely by accident, rather than design.

[grumbler]

But banning Talos also has another purpose as well that is central to their entire project. 

Interesting.  This must come from one of the quests i haven't finished yet.  Without spoiling it, can you tell me which quest it is?

[Valmy]

Interesting.  This must come from one of the quests i haven't finished yet.  Without spoiling it, can you tell me which quest it is?

I have not played Skyrim yet.  I am still working through Oblivion but I was really interested in the Thalmor so I read up on them and what I gathered was that they have an agenda that requires Talos, the only human God, to be destroyed.

That was the main reason I was asking about spoilers.  Were we only supposed to talk about stuff specifically in the game?  I don't want to spoil anything or annoy anybody.  So I think I will just leave it at that.