Children in 1979 vs 2011

[Syt]

Every time I see a parent tell their kid they should through their garbage in the street even though a trashcan is a few steps away, or that they should run across the street, despite the red light for pedestrians, because the tram is about to leave (and they can't wait for 5 minutes, obviously) I want to punch said parents.

[Oexmelin]

No excuse for parents complaining to college professors or showing up to employers. But the parts you bolded didn't talk about those things and sounded like professors were upset that students were trying to play hardball, and that made them uncomfortable.

Playing hardball?

Students complain that you assign them work for the reading week because they'll be vacationing in Cancun - and they paid good money for that vacation! They do not ask the reason why you gave them a C, they simply want to assert that they need a B+.

The problem is not that they try to negotiate deadlines, it is that they try to negotiate everything, from the amount of work, to the grades, to the number of exams, to the difficulty of the class. This is not asking universities to be responsive - it is asking professors to avoid provoking the least possible inconvenience to the students.

[alfred russel]

Playing hardball?

Students complain that you assign them work for the reading week because they'll be vacationing in Cancun - and they paid good money for that vacation! They do not ask the reason why you gave them a C, they simply want to assert that they need a B+.

The problem is not that they try to negotiate deadlines, it is that they try to negotiate everything, from the amount of work, to the grades, to the number of exams, to the difficulty of the class. This is not asking universities to be responsive - it is asking professors to avoid provoking the least possible inconvenience to the students.

I don't think that students who earn a C should get a B+, or that students should get out of work because they are vacationing in Cancun, but is it so terrible that they ask for these things? Presumably they are getting accomodated in some cases (I doubt they have gone through life constantly rejected on these points, and are still asking in university), which makes asking somewhat rational.

My guess would be that to the extent things have changed, it is because before students put more value on the relationship with the professor, rather than the current emphasis on grades.

[Martinus]

Well, that, coupled with a greater emphasis being put on students' reviews of professors, may end up favoring the "easy" professors and punish the demanding ones.

[Barrister]

I was reviewing a file for court tomorrow:

Police respond to a complaint of a possible abandoned child - there was a seven year old girl walking down the streets without any parents!

The girl pointed out her home, where police found dad (who wasn't supposed to have any contact with mom) thus leading to the file in my office.

[Ed Anger]

From April (posted in my thread in the back)

Ran into my first helicopter parent today. Had office hours today, and one of my students wanted to discuss her grade on the test. A high 'B' (86). In walked her and her sorta(maybe) MILF-y mom. They wanted me to bump her test grade up above 90. The possibility of her precious child not getting an 'A' could affect her GPA and have an effect when she transfers to big person university in 2 years.

SIGH. IT WAS AN OPEN BOOK TEST.

Anyways, I refused. The said they would go over my head to the Business Dean. I said go ahead. GOOD DAY MA'AM.

[Ideologue]

I suspect part of the over-active parenting may be the consquence of a feedback loop.  College admittance has become a good deal more competitive than it was 20-25 years ago.  "Top" universities in particular draw ridiculous numbers of application and take tiny percentages of applicants; the result has been a contionuous ramping up of expectations of applicants who are now expected not only to have excellent grades and test scores, but also all sort of unsusal or exceptional extra-curricular activities, community involvement, etc.  It's a lot to expect from an adolescent, and so naturally ambitious parents program the kids to maximize their "resume" as a college applicant.  As the competition heightens, the programming process get pushed farther back into childhood (in NYC as an extreme there can be fierce competition over getting into the right "feeder" pre-schools, etc) thus explaining the over-scheduling and control.  This phenomenon also explains parental intervention with teachers over school grades as one slip can put at risk years of costly investment.  At the same time the more intense the parental programming, the higher the bar that gets set and the more need to keep running to keep with the Jones'

I suspect at some point this has to end.  Humans have finite capabilities.

[The Brain]

If you just sit quietly in the corner you won't get what you want in life. Ask and sometimes you will actually receive, no matter how ridiculous.

[Malthus]

From April (posted in my thread in the back)

Ran into my first helicopter parent today. Had office hours today, and one of my students wanted to discuss her grade on the test. A high 'B' (86). In walked her and her sorta(maybe) MILF-y mom. They wanted me to bump her test grade up above 90. The possibility of her precious child not getting an 'A' could affect her GPA and have an effect when she transfers to big person university in 2 years.

SIGH. IT WAS AN OPEN BOOK TEST.

Anyways, I refused. The said they would go over my head to the Business Dean. I said go ahead. GOOD DAY MA'AM.

All this, and no oral sex out of the MILF-y mom? 

[crazy canuck]

I suspect at some point this has to end.  Humans have finite capabilities.

It has nothing to do with capabilities and everything to do with resume padding.  There is no secret that grade inflation is occuring so that secondary schools can get their students into university.  For that reason high school grades have become somewhat irrelevant since everyone and their dog seems to be capable of an A average these days.  As Minsky suggests that means more competition related to non academic achievements.  Which creates a kind of inflation of its own with lots activities in which the child barely participates.

The child's capabilities are not being expanded - just the resume.

[dps]

loads of consumerist crap.

That's a pretty basic definition of how to spoil a kid rotten.

[Ideologue]

I suspect at some point this has to end.  Humans have finite capabilities.

It has nothing to do with capabilities and everything to do with resume padding.  There is no secret that grade inflation is occuring so that secondary schools can get their students into university.  For that reason high school grades have become somewhat irrelevant since everyone and their dog seems to be capable of an A average these days.  As Minsky suggests that means more competition related to non academic achievements.  Which creates a kind of inflation of its own with lots activities in which the child barely participates.

The child's capabilities are not being expanded - just the resume.

Fair enough.  But at some point decision-makers have to realize that 90-100% of everything on a resume is crap, too, right?

Interestingly, I was applying to a fedgov job today, that asked me about my high school grades.  A surprising number of questions were stuff like "did you ever make the honor roll," and only provided "yes" or "no" bubbles, instead of the true responses, which would be either "I have no fucking idea, because it was over ten years ago" or "it doesn't matter in the slightest, because I spent more time in post-high school education than I did in high school, culminating in a bachelor's and a professional degree."

Fwiw, it was an entirely new one on me, and I've filled out like fifty fedgov questionnaires, most of which ask very reasonable questions and aren't eighty questions long.  GS-7, too, not a complete retard position, so it was extra weird.

[jimmy olsen]

Come, come. University students these days more entitled than (say) in the late 60s early 70s?

These things are cyclical. I don't believe "It's really really true this time!" and the explainations in the article smack of blaming the attitudes of '60s kids on reading comic books and listening to rock n roll. 

I dont think you understand what was happening in the 60s or 70s - trying to reform society is significantly different from bringing mommy and daddy to complain to the professor about not getting an A.

The "earnest reform of society" was of course only one aspect of the change in the attitude of students. Much of the campus revolt-type stuff was focused on 'making stuff more relevant to me, personally'. Not for nothing were the Baby Boomers called the "me generation".

All sorts of previously-unheard of self-indulgence on the part of students was considered, not just a right, but a positive duty -- nicely combining selfishness with ignorant, self-righteous priggishness.  This was a charge commonly levelled at boomers, particularly by their elders ...

You cannot be ignorant of this perception.

And their descendants. When everyone in contact with them both older and younger agree, maybe it's true.

[MadImmortalMan]

I suspect at some point this has to end.  Humans have finite capabilities.

It has nothing to do with capabilities and everything to do with resume padding.  There is no secret that grade inflation is occuring so that secondary schools can get their students into university.  For that reason high school grades have become somewhat irrelevant since everyone and their dog seems to be capable of an A average these days.  As Minsky suggests that means more competition related to non academic achievements.  Which creates a kind of inflation of its own with lots activities in which the child barely participates.

The child's capabilities are not being expanded - just the resume.

Part of that is that the kids are graded on the amount of busywork they do and not the amount of information they learned or skills they developed. But waaaa, little Johnny's not good at taking tests...


While I am with Ed that all the negotiating is bullshit, the conflict is that the kids have too much crapwork piled on them. No 4th grader should have four hours of homework a night. That's a ten-hour workday, and you can't even make an adult do that without paying them overtime. So I do have a bit of sympathy for the poor bastards.

[LaCroix]

until i turned 7ish  in '95 and was spirited away to bahrain, my childhood was pretty normal. i strolled the neighborhoods playing with friends and visited the park unsupervised a number of times. either my parents weren't typical, or this change in parenting has been more recent than the early-mid nineties