Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[Slargos]

Say what you will about the Norwads, but they know how to throw a parade. More than a third of the population of Oslo turned out yesterday.

[crazy canuck]

So saying he is not part of a terrorist organization or political movement is the same as saying nobody else shares his nutty ideas?

What then constitutes a political movement - do you require it to be so formal as to have a political party or is a political movement one which has a particular goal in mind?

[The Brain]

Except of course that it's not true. In Sweden the last 20 years we had at least two anti-immigrant terrorists who were systematically killing innocent people ("The Laserman" I and II).

"anti-immigrant" is more than a bit vague.
And I don't think you need to read a 1000+ page manifesto to grasp this guy is anti-immigrant, for whatever that fact is worth.

*shrug* If head-in-the-sand works for you then great.

[Grallon]

It's quite obvious that dismissing the guy as a madman, because of what he did, allows the majority to dismiss all the concerns behind the gesture as well.  Very convenient.




G.

[The Minsky Moment]

the gesture

Interesting way of characterizing mass murder.

[Ideologue]

Maybe we should have a Languish meet up in Oslo as a sign of solidarity ?

If you want to fly me to Oslo, I'll be more than happy to go.

[Berkut]

It's quite obvious that dismissing the guy as a madman, because of what he did, allows the majority to dismiss all the concerns behind the gesture as well.  Very convenient.




G.

The "concerns" behind the "gesture" can stand or fall on their own merits. The actions of a psychopath have no relevance. He did not murder 100 people because of those "concerns", but because he is a psychopath.

[Oexmelin]

the gesture

Interesting way of characterizing mass murder.

Gallicism. Read it as "his actions".

[Martinus]

Maybe it's me, but if someone mass-murdered a bunch of kids, ostensibly in the name of ideology that vaguely resembles my own, even if it wouldn't necessarily cause me to immediately reconsider my views, I would do my best to distance myself from the creep and try to show that either he was a madman who did not really espouse my ideology (and was rather motivated by his insanity) or that his ideology is quite different from my own for reasons a), b) and c). I would not try to argue that he made some good points, overall.

[The Minsky Moment]

Gallicism. Read it as "his actions".

Got it.  The English has a different connotation.

[Grallon]

The "concerns" behind the "gesture" can stand or fall on their own merits. The actions of a psychopath have no relevance. He did not murder 100 people because of those "concerns", but because he is a psychopath.

And I was not talking about the man's mental health.  As I and others have said before - eschewing the larger picture on the sole grounds that his recent actions are horrific is setting the table for more of the same.




G.

[The Minsky Moment]

And I was not talking about the man's mental health.  As I and others have said before - eschewing the larger picture on the sole grounds that his recent actions are horrific is setting the table for more of the same.

By larger picture, do you mean Muslim immigration?
And is the claim thus that not taking action to restrict Muslim immigration will inevitably lead to similar violence because the inherent quality of Muslim immigration is such that shooting Social Democratic youth auxiliaries logically follows?

[garbon]

And I was not talking about the man's mental health.  As I and others have said before - eschewing the larger picture on the sole grounds that his recent actions are horrific is setting the table for more of the same.

By larger picture, do you mean Muslim immigration?
And is the claim thus that not taking action to restrict Muslim immigration will inevitably lead to similar violence because the inherent quality of Muslim immigration is such that shooting Social Democratic youth auxiliaries logically follows?

And on the flipside when there is an islamic terrorist attack, perhaps we should reconsider our views about western ideals.

[Pat]

Except of course that it's not true. In Sweden the last 20 years we had at least two anti-immigrant terrorists who were systematically killing innocent people ("The Laserman" I and II).

Don't forget the theft of the Arbeit Macht Frei sign, the sale of which was supposed to fund a grandiose nazi terror attack against the Swedish parliament (fortunately it grew out of control until too many people were involved so it never came to be). I would be very much suprised if we were not to see more of these things now after this. And they will learn to use cellular structures more efficiently, if anything it was surprising they hadn't learned that already by the time of the arbeit mach frei-plot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/30/auschwitz-sign-stolen-terror-plot

By larger picture, do you mean Muslim immigration?
And is the claim thus that not taking action to restrict Muslim immigration will inevitably lead to similar violence because the inherent quality of Muslim immigration is such that shooting Social Democratic youth auxiliaries logically follows?

FWIW there are material forces (which is to say not imagined forces) going on in Scandinavian societies that will readily supply you with a feedback-loop of reinforcement of belief were you to follow certain narrowly put axioms to their conclusion. Not talking about these issues is what breeds these types, I believe, because they feel they are shut out of the market of ideas. I really do think so even though I would politely state this is not the time or place to analyze these forces, but I think I have shown myself very willing to engage in constructive argument with Slargos in the past and not just put my head in the sand in front of concrete problems (however I don't get very much feedback, he still wants me to die, so I don't know what point there is really - it's similar to when I have tried engaging in constructive discussion on Motpol, the far-right blog network; there is none to be found; for example there is censorship by blog owners pre-viewing all posts and then only allowing the ones that fit in).

[Grallon]

By larger picture, do you mean Muslim immigration?

And is the claim thus that not taking action to restrict Muslim immigration will inevitably lead to similar violence because the inherent quality of Muslim immigration is such that shooting Social Democratic youth auxiliaries logically follows?

The above is a textbook example of what is generally termed as 'loading the question' - nice work Counsel. 

-----

What the moral high-ground crowd seem to fail to understand (or more probably willfully ignore for the sake of posturing) is that there is the man's latent sociopathic/murderous impulses on one hand - and then there are the 'concerns' that (allegedly) motivated his actions on the other.  Two different things altogether.  The fact that both were conjoined in Friday's killing spree should not infringe on the potential validity of said concerns.




G.