Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[Jacob]

I think we Americans were not aware what we doing was multiculturalism so I think that is part of confusion.  When we hear the word it sounds like some sort of radical leftist thing people sneer at us for not doing.

If what we are doing is, in fact, what multiculturalism then we are for it!

We'll have a few beers.

Then tomorrow we can come back and figure out how best to blow minute differences in the underlying philosophy and implementation completely out of proportion and have a proper shit-flinging argument.

[Malthus]

I think we Americans were not aware what we doing was multiculturalism so I think that is part of confusion.  When we hear the word it sounds like some sort of radical leftist thing people sneer at us for not doing.

If what we are doing is, in fact, what multiculturalism then we are for it!

Pretty well, yeah. 

[Warspite]

Tell that to Sarkozy.

In Sarkozy's case each immigrant generation married a frenchman/frenchwoman and assymilating. Anecdotes do not trends make. But, not all immigrants are equal. A Hungarian or a Greek (in Sarkozy's case) are much much easier to assymilate than a turk or a berber. In my case as and Icelander I'm pre-assymilated in Scandinavia as I'm considered one of "us". Europe has through history had a constant flow of people and refugees for centuries, usually moving to a polity more tolerant of their religion/politics. The Mayflower is just a continuation of an old tradition. This tradition is, however, a tradition of moving towards similarity rather than towards difference. Hugenot Protestants would move to Protestant England, English Catholics would move to France.

The concept of multi culturalism was invented in the 1960's in concert with post-modernism and cultural relativism and has a common set of assumptions (yes I know, post-modernism using meta-narratives, how droll). This happened at the same time as a new form of immigrant arrived in western europe, the guest worker. Never intended to be assimilated he was not and still has not.

I'd say the large numbers of Africans and West Indians who came to the UK in the 60s have done quite well, to the point that now, large portions of the white urban working class youth in London have adopted an accent closer to Jamaican than cockney, and listen to music with definite Afro-Carribean origin.

Most immigrant communities from the Indian subcontinent are well integrated too, yet remain distinct.

I don't think most people would complain about Chinatown either, even though the signs are in *gasp* Chinese and you can't find a steak and chips anywhere.

[Jacob]

I'd say the large numbers of Africans and West Indians who came to the UK in the 60s have done quite well, to the point that now, large portions of the white urban working class youth in London have adopted an accent closer to Jamaican than cockney, and listen to music with definite Afro-Carribean origin.

Most immigrant communities from the Indian subcontinent are well integrated too, yet remain distinct.

I don't think most people would complain about Chinatown either, even though the signs are in *gasp* Chinese and you can't find a steak and chips anywhere.

Apparently that's terrifying enough that it can push someone to mass murder, and many others to sympathize with the motivation if not the action.

[The Brain]

I think to a large extent the current kerfuffle in Europe is about folks there fearing losing their own cultural uniqueness, and seeking some sort of government enforcement of that. Which is more or less the opposite of "multiculturalism".

I think that's a massive understatement of the issue.  I think it's mostly about fears of rising crime from a group of people who are hostile to the core values of the host culture, who are less than Lutheran in their efforts to become productive members of society, and who practice coercion on their own offspring in a way that is anathema to the host culture.  It's not about Danes losing their dominance in team handball.

Correct AFAICT. Certainly regarding Sweden.

[Tonitrus]

I discovered proof today that America really hates mulitculturalism and immigration.

$15+ dollars/month per each -one- foreign language channel(excluding Spanish, of course) from the cable company?  WTF?

[Barrister]

I discovered proof today that America really hates mulitculturalism and immigration.

$15+ dollars/month per each -one- foreign language channel(excluding Spanish, of course) from the cable company?  WTF?

Surely you can figure out a way to get Uncle Sam to pay that cost for you?

[Tonitrus]

I discovered proof today that America really hates mulitculturalism and immigration.

$15+ dollars/month per each -one- foreign language channel(excluding Spanish, of course) from the cable company?  WTF?

Surely you can figure out a way to get Uncle Sam to pay that cost for you?

Not likely.

[Martinus]

I just had a horribly tasteless nerdish thought. 

So, we have a crazy blond gay guy named Anders, who blows shit up, is a political terrorist and this has something to do with templars? 

I blame: Bioware.

[dps]

Yup. What the conservatives and nationalists do not understand is that you cannot function without immigrants these days, at least not if you want to maintain the kind of quality of living that we have in the West.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't buy that argument at all.  At least not in an American context--I can't say for sure about Europe, but I doubt it's true there either.  The countries that depend on immigrants to maintain the native population's standard of living and lifestyle are the Arab oil states, where almost all the actual physical labor is done by immigrants.

Well, you could say that America is willing to spend a lot of money on its military/security (at the cost of stuff like free education, healthcare or social welfare) to "keep the darkies out" as it were - again, something Europe is not willing to do either.

The fact is that in the modern world, the "brown" immigrants are the previous ages' huddled masses who work for us and are kept outside - we can't do this indefinitely, unless we want to invest a lot in "police" forces, like you guys do (not to mention I am not sure it is a good idea).

I didn't say that we should keep "the darkies" or anyone else out.  I said that I find the argument that we need immigrants to keep our economy and standard of living from collapsing to be a fallacy.

Personally, I think that we should allow pretty easy and open legal immigration because it's the right thing to do (and yeah, because it's generally worked out pretty well for us), but I don't think that we need immigrants, per se.

[dps]

That doesn't sound anything like a promise that what the immigrant finds important will be retained.

It's a promise that the federal government will not substantially burden religion - even through general laws - unless it is the least restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest. 

That's a pretty significant promise to allow the immigrant to retain their religion.

It's not limited to immigrants.

[Martinus]

My point wasn't that you need immigrants. My point was that immigrants want to get in, and since you are living off their labour (due to the use of cheap labour by your corporations there), they will get eventually pissed off. So either you have to let them in or you have to build walls and man them with people with guns.

[citizen k]

So either you have to let them in or you have to build walls and man them with people with guns.

We do both.

[Martinus]

So either you have to let them in or you have to build walls and man them with people with guns.

We do both.

Which is my point.

[citizen k]

So either you have to let them in or you have to build walls and man them with people with guns.

We do both.

Which is my point.

So what's the problem? We've got all our bases covered.