Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[Martinus]

Are you seriously saying that all those who think that halal/kosher slaughter should be banned are really doing this out of hatred for islam or judaism and intolerance?

Where did he claim this?

Well, as I read his post, there are no grey areas on which people may disagree based on legitimate moral objections, but rather the areas where people disagree come from intolerance/bigotry of the anti-crowd.

[Martinus]

Apparently, the mats the guy used to build his bomb were sold to him by a Polish businessman from Wroclaw(Breslau).

Poland! Poland! Poland! 

[The Brain]

Well right.  American cultural values (at least the good ones) are about freedom of religion and expression and basically letting people do their own thing.  That is a good thing for people who want to preserve certain parts of their cultural traditions but first they must accept these basic tenents of our culture or they need to go someplace else.

As a general principle, people are more likely to show respect when they themselves are shown respect in return.\

That is one reason why the American approach re immigrants, for all its serious flaws, tends to have a better track for assimilation than those that take a more punitive, illiberal approach.

Many Europeans would love to have the American "no crap refugees" policy.

[grumbler]

Well, as I read his post, there are no grey areas on which people may disagree based on legitimate moral objections, but rather the areas where people disagree come from intolerance/bigotry of the anti-crowd.

You read poorly, don't you?

The conflict isn't caused by gray areas; it results from the fact that for all the rhetorical lip service individuals may give to the concept of tolerance, many people (most?) don't actyally practice it. 

What he is saying is that conflict isn't caused by the existance of gray areas, but by the intolerance of people who claim they are debating about "gray areas" but in reality are merely justifying their own bigotry.

The animal ritual slaughter debate was actually a pretty good example of that; there were people insisting that ritual slaughter shouldn't be allowed because it was somehow de facto horrid because "bronze age," there were those who insisted that it must be allowed no matter what because it was an issue of "religious freedom," and there were those who were debating the specifics of the issue without insisting on one outcome or the other a priori.  It is the former two types who create conflict, not the latter type.

[Grallon]

And it's begun.  Today in La Presse the chief editor labeled the man a 'madman' and wrote:


"...However there's no ideology at the root of the massacre.  It's madness."

and also:

"There's no underlying cause explaining the tragedy."


As you can see: complete and utter denial about any potential systemic causes for such behavior.  Unsurprisingly that newspaper is also known to be staunchly federalist and thus a vocal advocate of multiculturalism...

I hold these blind fools almost as responsible for this massacre, and all the others that will come in the future, as the actual killer(s). 




G.

[Malthus]

Are you seriously saying that all those who think that halal/kosher slaughter should be banned are really doing this out of hatred for islam or judaism and intolerance?

The issue of tolerance isn't simply about hatred of one group or another, but about justifying (or putting aside) that visceral reaction of "eeeeww!" when confronted with habits that do not match one's own.

Lots of people who are not gay are simply squigged out by homosexuality, particularly by those who practice anal sex, and justify that gut-reaction by adopting an anti-gay stance; they are all the more likely to view it as a public-heath risk, as "not normal", as "degenerate", etc. They may not be inherently gay-hating, but their unwillingness to set aside their gut feelings and attempt to examine matters objectively makes them so.

Similarly, lots of folks are squigged out by slaughter that involves slitting the throat (as opposed to driving a bolt through the brain). They are all the more likely to view it as "cruel" and "inhuman". They may have nothing in particular against Jews or Muslims, but again, their unwillingness to set aside their feelings and examine the matter objectively makes them so.

In both cases, one could if one wanted to justify the "ewww, yuck" reaction; in both cases, the justification is on its face weak and lame, and on its merits would not satisfy a neutral observer that restrictions on the practice are really justified. There is a lack of scientific evidence, for example, that animals killed by having their throats cut by ritual slaughterers actually suffer measurably more than animals being bolted. But scientific evidence isn't what that debate was about - it was more about the "eeeww" factor.

[The Brain]

And it's begun.  Today in La Presse the chief editor labeled the man a 'madman' and wrote:


"...However there's no ideology at the root of the massacre.  It's madness."

and also:

"There's no underlying cause explaining the tragedy."


As you can see: complete and utter denial about any potential systemic causes for such behavior.  Unsurprisingly that newspaper is also known to be staunchly federalist and thus a vocal advocate of multiculturalism...

I hold these blind fools almost as responsible for this massacre, and all the others that will come in the future, as the actual killer(s). 




G.

Yes that's pretty stupid. His politics are very clear.

[grumbler]

Many Europeans would love to have the American "no crap refugees" policy.

So would some Americans, I am sure.  Luckily, they haven't won out yet and, as a result, there are many fine Vietnamese, Afghan, and Middle eastern restaurants in the US.

The problem isn't crap refugees.  The problem is that some countries (in Scandinavia especially) simply don't realize that, if they are going to be anti-entrepreneurial, they really shouldn't be taking in refugees.  In Britain, say, the percentage of entrepreneurs who are immigrants is higher than the percentage of those who are not immigrants; in Scandinavia, it is the reverse (and, of course, much lower for native than in Britain for natives).  The immigrant path to success is via entrepreneurship (either by the immigrant or by someone in his/her community), not factory jobs.

I am not saying that Scandinavia should become more entrepreneurial.  It seems to be doing pretty well without that.  I am saying that Scandinavia shouldn't be accepting many permanent refugees in the absence of entrepreneurial opportunities.

[Syt]

BBC: Norway gunman 'has accomplices'

Norwegian police are investigating claims by Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin attacks in Norway, that he has "two more cells" working with him.

Mr Breivik made the claim as he attended his first court hearing following the bombing in Oslo and a massacre on an island youth camp that killed at least 93 people in total.

Mr Breivik, 32, said his attacks were a "strong signal" to Norway's people.

He was detained for eight weeks.

Oslo police asked for Mr Breivik to be held in full isolation for the first four weeks.

Judge Kim Heger agreed, saying Mr Breivik could not receive letters or have visitors except for his lawyer.

Judge Heger said police must be able to proceed with the investigation into Mr Breivik's claims without the accused being able to interfere.

Mr Breivik had earlier said he had acted alone.

Mr Breivik has been charged under the criminal law for acts of terrorism. The charges include the destabilisation of vital functions of society, including government, and causing serious fear in the population.

The judge said Mr Breivik had admitted carrying out the attacks but had not pleaded guilty to the charges.

Judge Heger had earlier ruled that the hearing should be held behind closed doors.

He had said: "It is clear that there is concrete information that a public hearing with the suspect present could quickly lead to an extraordinary and very difficult situation in terms of the investigation and security."

There had been concern among many Norwegians that Mr Breivik would use the hearing to deliver a speech seeking to justify his actions.

Instead Judge Heger summarised Mr Breivik's words in his post-hearing statement.

The judge said Mr Breivik had argued that he was acting to save Norway and Europe from Muslim colonisation.

The gunman had said his operation was not aimed at killing as many people as possible but that he wanted to create the greatest loss possible to Norway's governing Labour Party, which he accused of failing the country on immigration.

The bomb in Oslo targeted buildings connected to the Labour Party government, and the youth camp on Utoeya island was also run by the party.

In addition to the seven people killed in Oslo and 86 on Utoeya, at least 96 people were injured in the attacks.
Political postponement

Separately, Norway's Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, in his first interview with a British broadcaster, told the BBC's Jon Sopel that the attacks would change his country but that it would "still be open and democratic".

Click to play

Judge Kim Heger: "The accused believes he needed to carry out these attacks''

Mr Stoltenberg said he knew many of those who had died and now was the time to look after the wounded and the families that had lost loved ones.

He said he believed no country could ever fully protect itself from attacks such as these.

He also thanked the international community for its response.

Earlier at 1200 local time, Mr Stoltenberg, at Oslo University, declared one minute's silence in remembrance of the victims.

Thousands of people stood around a carpet of flowers at Oslo cathedral.

One Oslo citizen, Sven-Erik Fredheim, told Reuters: "It is important to have this minute of silence so that all the victims and the parents of the families know that people are thinking about them."

Meanwhile, Norway has postponed the start of party political campaigns ahead of the 12 September election, the Aftenposten newspaper reports.

The campaigning is now set to start during the second half of August.

[The Brain]

Many Europeans would love to have the American "no crap refugees" policy.

So would some Americans, I am sure.  Luckily, they haven't won out yet and, as a result, there are many fine Vietnamese, Afghan, and Middle eastern restaurants in the US.

Yes, especially Iraqi refugee-owned or operated restaurants. One Swedish town took in more Iraqi refugees than all of the US combined.

[DGuller]

Russian immigrants seem to mainly get established by finding white collar jobs here in US.  Then again, Russian immigrants tend to be very highly educated Jews, so they're probably not your typical example of a refugee.

[The Brain]

claims by Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin attacks in Norway, that he has "two more cells" working

That would be his brain cells.

[grumbler]

One Swedish town took in more Iraqi refugees than all of the US combined.

And I'll bet that one US town took in more Hmong refugees than all of Sweden combined.

[Gups]

And it's begun.  Today in La Presse the chief editor labeled the man a 'madman' and wrote:


"...However there's no ideology at the root of the massacre.  It's madness."

and also:

"There's no underlying cause explaining the tragedy."


As you can see: complete and utter denial about any potential systemic causes for such behavior.  Unsurprisingly that newspaper is also known to be staunchly federalist and thus a vocal advocate of multiculturalism...

I hold these blind fools almost as responsible for this massacre, and all the others that will come in the future, as the actual killer(s). 




G.

If any responsibility lies with people expressing their opinions (which is debatable)  it lies with  the bigoted fools spreading their racist posion all over the internet and acting liek an echo chamber for idiots like these.

Of course your the kind of person who'd be blaming the lefty media after Kristalnacht for failing to recognise the inevitable consequences of alllowing the jews to mix with aryans.

[The Brain]

One Swedish town took in more Iraqi refugees than all of the US combined.

And I'll bet that one US town took in more Hmong refugees than all of Sweden combined.

Yay?