Football (Soccer) Thread

[Sheilbh]

Bye bye Ole.

I'm not saying United's leadership are incompetent but it is crazy to me how they've managed to fire Solskjaer just a week or two after Conte got another job

Too late for Conte, too soon for Poch

Edit: Also they did a farewell interview with him - this is a bit weird
https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/1462468647759327238?s=20

[Agelastus]

6(?) of the 20 clubs pulling the trigger before Christmas...are we heading for a record season?

[The Larch]

Too late for Conte, too soon for Poch

I'm seeing reports where they put Poch as one of the forerunners for the job. Why would he leave PSG for that? It seems a bit delusional. The other big name being touted around is Zidane, but I think he's smart enough not to get in a rickety ship. Other candidates being touted around are Ten Haag (has already said he won't leave Ajax hanging mid-season), Luís Enrique (laughed out as an answer when the press asked him about it) and Brendan Rogers (already coaching Leicester).

It seems to me that United think too highly of their own prestige when fishing for coaches mid-season, as if anyone would be willing to leave whatever it is they're doing, be it club or national team, for a chance to coach them.

[Josquius]

Zidane has already said no.

So.... Ronaldo is the problem at Manchester right?

[The Larch]

So.... Ronaldo is the problem at Manchester right?

I don't know if he is *the* problem but he is certainly a problem, and possibly the biggest problem in the field itself.

On the issue, I absolutely love Jonathan Wilson's low intensity journalistic guerrilla warfare against Ronaldo since he signed for United.  He does think that Ronaldo is the problem, but more as a symbol of United's internal disfunction.

Ronaldo is the biggest problem for Manchester United's next manager
Forward is seemingly impossible to fit into a modern system and his signing symbolises a flaw holding back the club

So, what next? Ole Gunnar Solskjær has gone, and with him perhaps Manchester United's most visible problem, but a sentimental appointment wasn't the only issue holding the club back. United are institutionally dysfunctional and it will take more than a change of personnel in the dugout to change that.

Solskjær was a fine appointment as caretaker, perhaps the last good decision Ed Woodward made as United CEO. The return of a popular club legend, the sunshine man whose rays of decency could dispel the acrimony of the latter days of José Mourinho's reign, made sense. The problem was that rather than waiting until his short-term contract expired, Woodward gave him the job on a permanent basis.

Even by the end of that season, as United won only two of their final 12 games, it was apparent a mistake had been made. Solskjær's teams lacked the sophisticated organisation that differentiates the very best from the rest. The board could have made an assessment with the benefit of as much evidence as possible; instead they allowed themselves to be carried by emotion.

That lack of organisation was never resolved. Solskjær could set up a team to defend deep and strike on the break, which brought a series of notable results in big games, but they struggled to break down well-organised defences. Of course, when you have a squad as loaded with talent as United's, you will score goals most of the time, but the draw at West Brom, the home defeat by Sheffield United, and perhaps most especially the draw against Villarreal in the Europa League final were indictments.

This season, the flaw was compounded by the signing of Cristiano Ronaldo, another nostalgia-driven investment, another reminder that United as a club see themselves as being less about the production of effective football than saleable content. This is a squad put together less for utility than celebrity.

Suddenly it was no longer possible to sit deep and counter because there was a chugging goal-machine who had to be selected up front. With a great midfield, as Real Madrid showed with Casemiro, Luka Modric and Toni Kroos, it is (just about) possible to compensate for Ronaldo and his unwillingness or inability to press. Scott McTominay, Fred and Nemanja Matic do not constitute a great midfield.

The inertia of the United directors, their hope that everything would somehow come good, that a functioning team could somehow be constructed out of some famous people and some 1990s memes, means they have missed out on the best available candidate, Antonio Conte going the way of Thomas Tuchel and Mauricio Pochettino (when he joined Paris Saint-Germain). United's statement said they will appoint an interim manager until the end of the season. But then who? Zinedine Zidane, Pochettino, Brendan Rodgers, Julen Lopetegui? Would Laurent Blanc be up for it? Could Ralf Rangnick be persuaded to leave Lokomotiv Moscow and take over as sporting director?

And that is probably the biggest issue. The United board might not be so susceptible to each passing tide if there were somebody there who grasped modern football. The most damaging aspect of the Solskjær appointment was probably that it meant plans for a high-profile sporting director were shelved. John Murtough was appointed as football director in March but his visible impact has been minimal. With a figure who could guide the overall outlook there might be a coherence to signings, rather than a series of half-baked half-theories vaguely pursued before the allure of nostalgia and glamour takes over again.

This is a squad that has been expensively assembled, but it lacks coherence and whoever is appointed will have to face that first of all – and that means sales as well as signings. Why was Paul Pogba not offloaded when he might have generated a fee? It's not necessarily a criticism of them as players, but why are Donny van de Beek, Eric Bailly, Juan Mata, Alex Telles and Diogo Dalot at the club if there was no place for them in Solskjær's plans? But the biggest problem is Ronaldo.

It's all very well him scoring late goals to salvage games against teams such as Villarreal and Atalanta, but why do those games need salvaging? Zidane left Real Madrid at the end of his final season there, since when Ronaldo has seen off Max Allegri, Maurizio Sarri and Andrea Pirlo before Solskjær: that's five coaches in three and a half years across three clubs. How can he be fitted into a modern system? The truth is that, for all his goals, he probably can't. While he remains at the club, whoever the manager is will be compensating for his presence and that militates against an integrated philosophy.

His status dwarfs all else and that leads to a compunction, not to use him as an impact sub or only in matches in which United are likely to dominate the ball, but to play him in the majority of games. And the effect of that ripples out, reducing opportunities for Jadon Sancho (a £73m signing this summer who has seemingly been sacrificed on the altar of Ronaldo), Mason Greenwood, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Martial, Jesse Lingard and Edinson Cavani.

What United need, fairly obviously, is a coherent structure. They need to build a system that presses, that allows the team to function as a unit, both going forwards and backwards. But achieving that with this squad, with a board forever adding new gaudy accoutrements, is far from straightforward.

And while the present situation is clearly filtered through a modern lens, the sense of frustration, of stars never quite making a constellation, has been, beyond the Busby and Ferguson eras, fairly standard at Old Trafford since the second world war. Only three managers have won the league with United. Without major changes throughout the club, it may be a long time before there's a fourth.

[Sheilbh]

I'm seeing reports where they put Poch as one of the forerunners for the job. Why would he leave PSG for that? It seems a bit delusional. The other big name being touted around is Zidane, but I think he's smart enough not to get in a rickety ship. Other candidates being touted around are Ten Haag (has already said he won't leave Ajax hanging mid-season), Luís Enrique (laughed out as an answer when the press asked him about it) and Brendan Rogers (already coaching Leicester).

I get the impression Poch is not very happy in PSG - and he is a coach with a really defined identity and way of playing that demands everything of his players, particularly that they run and press all the time. So I can see why working with Mbappe, Neymar and Messi which might be a dream for, say, an Ancelotti is frustrating for Poch. I just can't see why he'd want to swap that for coaching *checks notes* Ronaldo

Having said that - at the end of the season I can see the appeal for someone like Poch. There is a decent amount of young talent in United that I think he would work well with and they're willing to spend money so in my head it would be a good fit.

I think there's also a bit of doubt about Rodgers at the minute because something's wrong at Leicester right now and I don't think anyone can work it out - but Rodgers does have form for things going wrong quickly and not being able to find a solution. Ironically one of the best candidates for the job at the minute is probably David Moyes

It seems to me that United think too highly of their own prestige when fishing for coaches mid-season, as if anyone would be willing to leave whatever it is they're doing, be it club or national team, for a chance to coach them.

Maybe. I think they're just incompetent - I think the comparison with Spurs is interesting. They obviously got burned this summer. But if you look at when they got rid of Poch they had lined up Mourinho already, when they got rid of Nuno I think they must have already been pretty far down the line with Conte because that moved very quickly. I think the post-Mourinho experience humiliated them a little bit but got the sense Levy learned the mistakes and fixed it.

United seem to just make a lot of decisions without thinking them through or putting them all together or working out what happens next. That goes for signing new players, appointing new managers, new contracts and firing managers. I used to think it was an Ed Woodward thing but it may be a bit wider. Can you run a football club on nostalgia and vibes?

On the issue, I absolutely love Jonathan Wilson's low intensity journalistic guerrilla warfare against Ronaldo since he signed for United.  He does think that Ronaldo is the problem, but more as a symbol of United's internal disfunction.

Yes! Wilson does this every now and then on a topic and I absolutely love it. I remember his as you sawy low intensity guerilla warfare against Frank Lampard as a manager and it was great - and he was right.

Edit: Re. managerial appointments - I feel really sorry for Eddie Howe having to self-isolate with a positive covid test on his first game as Newcastle manager. But also Eddie Howe strikes me as a very bold decision for Newcastle given they're fighting relegation

Edit: Also on United I loved the Succession memes with Fergie as Logan saying "he's just not a killer" and Solskjaer as Kendall

[Josephus]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

[The Larch]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

[Duque de Bragança]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

MLS needs more Qatari, Saudi or Emirati owners who can affort the above mentioned two. 

[Josephus]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

MLS needs more Qatari, Saudi or Emirati owners who can affort the above mentioned two. 

Several clubs in MLS have lots of money to burn. It's all corporate but it's still money.

[Sheilbh]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

Aren't there legal issues with Ronaldo going to the US? Or is that not a thing?

[The Larch]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

MLS needs more Qatari, Saudi or Emirati owners who can affort the above mentioned two. 

I guess that for those two it is not really a matter of money, they've already made tons of it, and Messi gladly took paycheck cuts to be able to continue at Barcelona, but of them feeling that they are still first rate players that can cut it at top level. To move to a "retiree league", be it the MLS, Japan or Qatar, would be admitting that they're past it, and that's not something they're willing to accept. I mean, Ronaldo is only recently accepting being substituted without throwing a temper tantrum.

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

Aren't there legal issues with Ronaldo going to the US? Or is that not a thing?

There were rumours about that but I'm not really sure if they're based in anything solid or is just salacious hearsay.

[Grey Fox]

Seems to me, Ronaldo needs to be offloaded to a rich MLS club where nothing will be expected of him other than to entertain the crowd. Sort of like Beckham.

That should be the realistic stage of his career, given how unsuited he is to modern football at top level. In a certain way Messi is in the same boat, as they're both apathetic on defence and won't press even if their lives depended on it, which is a must at top clubs nowadays.

Aren't there legal issues with Ronaldo going to the US? Or is that not a thing?

In 2018, he was avoiding going to the US because of a 2009 rape investigation that had been reopened.

[HVC]

He was acquitted of those recently, wasn't he? so he's free to move to LA for over paid retirement.

[Josephus]

To be fair to the MLS, if any of you follow it, it is trying to get away from the retirement league stereotype by coming up with all sorts of incentives to sign younger <25 year old designated players over older players.
One of the last major old "retiree" signings is currently playing for a top Serie A side.