Bath Salts Drug Crisis

[Barrister]

Think it through.

Surely though if one were to make decisions about the laws based purely on the potential for harms, pot would likely rate far lower on any objective scale than alcohol in both acute and chronic effect.

Given that there is a scale of harm, from the "not very harmful" effect of (say) caffene on the one hand (a cup of tea, anyone?) through to the "most harmful" effect of (say) krocodil  on the other(causes gangrinous wounds and death), most folks who think drug laws are necessary are going to have to draw a line on that scale and say 'anything worse than X is going to be prohibited'.

The question is, where to draw that X? Given the widespread acceptance of booze, it makes sense to say that 'anything worse than booze is prohibited', right?

First - think it through?  You think this is the first time I've heard or contemplated this argument?  Do you think so little of me that you think I simply missed your point?

I understand your point and still say - so alcohol is worse than pot.  So what?

Booze is the exception.  Booze is the one substance with deep cultural roots in most societies.  Hell it has religious roots for many.  It's the one we failed spectacularily when we did try to ban it.  It is the easiest intoxicant to make yourself - pot is easy to grow, but it's only one plant species.  Alcohol can be made from anything.

Potheads who want to legalize marijuana using the alcohol argument remind me of a little kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar blurting out 'but Johnnie took a cookie earlier'.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Capetan Mihali]

I've spent way more time this summer working on pot busts than I expected.  Granted, it's usually in conjunction with something else, but still.   Setting felony marijuana levels at a half-ounce =

[Iormlund]

I've known several people that have ended up residing in a mental institution for some time after drug abuse. While they did use plenty of marijuana, they also drank alcohol and took ketamine, metamphetamine and other shit so it's hard to say which is to blame.

It is also worth noting that all of them were already ... peculiar (if completely functional) before taking drugs. Drug abuse seemingly exacerbated their tendencies to the extreme.

[mongers]

Think it through.

Surely though if one were to make decisions about the laws based purely on the potential for harms, pot would likely rate far lower on any objective scale than alcohol in both acute and chronic effect.

Given that there is a scale of harm, from the "not very harmful" effect of (say) caffene on the one hand (a cup of tea, anyone?) through to the "most harmful" effect of (say) krocodil  on the other(causes gangrinous wounds and death), most folks who think drug laws are necessary are going to have to draw a line on that scale and say 'anything worse than X is going to be prohibited'.

The question is, where to draw that X? Given the widespread acceptance of booze, it makes sense to say that 'anything worse than booze is prohibited', right?

First - think it through?  You think this is the first time I've heard or contemplated this argument?  Do you think so little of me that you think I simply missed your point?

I understand your point and still say - so alcohol is worse than pot.  So what?

Booze is the exception.  Booze is the one substance with deep cultural roots in most societies.  Hell it has religious roots for many.  It's the one we failed spectacularily when we did try to ban it. It is the easiest intoxicant to make yourself - pot is easy to grow, but it's only one plant species.  Alcohol can be made from anything.

Potheads who want to legalize marijuana using the alcohol argument remind me of a little kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar blurting out 'but Johnnie took a cookie earlier'.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

And the war on drugs hasn't .... ?

[Malthus]

First - think it through?  You think this is the first time I've heard or contemplated this argument?  Do you think so little of me that you think I simply missed your point?

I understand your point and still say - so alcohol is worse than pot.  So what?

I just explained the "what". 

Booze is the exception.  Booze is the one substance with deep cultural roots in most societies.  Hell it has religious roots for many.  It's the one we failed spectacularily when we did try to ban it.  It is the easiest intoxicant to make yourself - pot is easy to grow, but it's only one plant species.  Alcohol can be made from anything.

The "booze has deep roots in our culture" argument cuts no ice. Lots of things have deep cultural roots, even religious roots, but which we have changed. Think for example of the status of women.

The "we failed at prohibition" argument - like we are succeeding with "drug prohibition"?  Since when does doing something and failing spectacularly act as a recommendation to do exactly the same thing again?   

The "it is easier to make booze" argument is lame  Pot is a weed. It grows almost anywhere.

Potheads who want to legalize marijuana using the alcohol argument remind me of a little kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar blurting out 'but Johnnie took a cookie earlier'.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

There is no "wrongs" involved at all. The question is one of public policy and harm reduction. What is "wrong" about having a glass of wine?

[Razgovory]

I was administered cocaine once by a doctor.  I was 12. 

So did I when I was a kid.  It's used as anesthetic for the eye.  Or at least it used to be, don't know if it is anymore.  I had a cut on my eye, and I was screaming and kicking any doctor who would get near me.  They held me down, put the stuff in my eye and I immediately calmed down.

[citizen k]

  Setting felony marijuana levels at a half-ounce =

You're allowed to possess 24 ounces of "useable marijuana" in Washington, with a MM license.

[Barrister]

I was administered cocaine once by a doctor.  I was 12. 

So did I when I was a kid.  It's used as anesthetic for the eye.  Or at least it used to be, don't know if it is anymore.  I had a cut on my eye, and I was screaming and kicking any doctor who would get near me.  They held me down, put the stuff in my eye and I immediately calmed down.

There's no fucking way that cocaine calmed me down.  Quite the opposite.

[Capetan Mihali]

There's no fucking way that cocaine calmed me down.  Quite the opposite.

The amount of cocaine solution used for eye anesthesia is extremely small.  Even less than the already small amount sprayed intranasally.  He probably calmed down because, you know, it worked.

Source:  Summers of 2002 and 2003 doing data entry in the ophthalmology wing of Columbia Presbyterian. 

[Barrister]

There's no fucking way that cocaine calmed me down.  Quite the opposite.

The amount of cocaine solution used for eye anesthesia is extremely small.  Even less than the already small amount sprayed intranasally.  He probably calmed down because, you know, it worked.

Source:  Summers of 2002 and 2003 doing data entry in the ophthalmology wing of Columbia Presbyterian. 

They didn't spray me.  They used a cotton ball soaked in liquid cocaine.

I'm pretty sure the doctor fucked something up in that whole transaction.

IIRC it didn't even stop the nosebleed.

[Capetan Mihali]

They didn't spray me.  They used a cotton ball soaked in liquid cocaine.

I'm pretty sure the doctor fucked something up in that whole transaction.

IIRC it didn't even stop the nosebleed.

  Ah. 

[mongers]

There's no fucking way that cocaine calmed me down.  Quite the opposite.

The amount of cocaine solution used for eye anesthesia is extremely small.  Even less than the already small amount sprayed intranasally.  He probably calmed down because, you know, it worked.

Source:  Summers of 2002 and 2003 doing data entry in the ophthalmology wing of Columbia Presbyterian. 

They didn't spray me.  They used a cotton ball soaked in liquid cocaine.

I'm pretty sure the doctor fucked something up in that whole transaction.

IIRC it didn't even stop the nosebleed.

Was BB's childhood during Victorian times ? 

[viper37]

I've never seen any pot-smokers who thought they heard devils. 

Unless you read French, I can't provide a source, but see the case I pointed to BB, the one of Martin Veilleux in Longueuil.  He's not the first one, wasn't the last either, afaik.

[viper37]

You've never heard of DTs? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

Never seen this in recent times.  Not with legally bought alcohol, anyway.  With moonshine, anything is possible.
It seems to happens when you enter withdrawal, not when you drink the stuff.

Or alcohol-related psychosis?
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/289848-overview

Alcohol-related psychosis spontaneously clears with discontinuation of alcohol use
No permanent harm, then.

Alcohol-related dementia?
http://www.annals-general-psychiatry.com/content/5/S1/S57

The term "alcoholic dementia", formerly used to describe this concept, has cast doubt on its existence due to the absence of validated clinical, neuropathological and radiological criteria.
So, they broaden the definition to include just about everything bad that can be caused when you drink 40oz of Dekuyper gin before breakfast.

[viper37]

And if it's a question of its use being a factor in crimes and accidents, I doubt it's even a contest.

Unless I am mistaken, it is still forbidden to a police officer to force a blood test on you.  Pot detector aren't mandatory, unlike alcohol.
Quite often, people smoking pot in a night also drink.  Police test for alcohol with the usual tools, guy is charged with DUI, media reports he was charged for driving drunk.
Unless someone makes a detailed analysis of all criminal cases, it's going to be hard to get reliable stats.