Dutch Muslims & Jews united together

[Razgovory]

If you want to study the effects of kosher slaughter you first define explicitly what kosher slaughter is and devise a test protocol which is consistent with that definition. You do NOT let a biased Ninja Rabbi slaughter the animal to add a source of uncertainty to the study. This is special pleading.

How on earth does the "bias" of the rabbi effect the EEG result! 
Maybe you think these guys really are ninja and can control the electric outpute from cow brains . . .

The argument that you draw conclusions about protocol X by testing wholly different protcol Y is unsound.  It's like testing an experimental drug by conducting clinical trials with a different drug on the theory that using the actual drug you want to bring to market, you would "bias" the test results.

The point of the scientific method is that I don't have to figure out what bias the Ninja Rabbi effect might introduce.

That drug analogy you use is fallacious. Human factors must be removed from testing. Basically, your argument is that the Ninja Rabbi skills could make the difference, not all Rabbi are Ninja's. The study is not about comparing best practice vs best practice, but rather explicitly defined practice vs explicitly defined practice. The point is that you could repeat "your protocol" against with a "less than Ninja" Rabbi and get the opposite result to the one with the Ninja Rabbi.

The scientific method includes doing an experiment to test a certain technique without actually having anyone who know how to properly do the technique (or even the correct tools!)  That's completely asinine.  You have to have a human element since you testing a human action.

[HVC]

The one thing this thread makes clear (besides the canadian moral superiority that i mentioned earlier) is that i really want to be a ninja rabbi. Guess first i gotta become a jew first. does adult circumcision hurt a lot?

I was operated for a constricted foreskin, so YES. I cried myself to sleep for a week.

there goes my plan.

I have firmosis too, since we're sharing. nuts to gettting that fixed.

[Razgovory]

Yes I do. How does that excuse you from actually dealing with my arguments rather than impuning my motives? So what if I hate religion. I'm not arguing that religion is bad, I'm arguing that Religion is not a sufficient reason to excuse animal cruelty.

I think your hatred of religion has blinded you to this issue of animal cruelty, which doesn't seem to exist in this case.

[Viking]

If you want to study the effects of kosher slaughter you first define explicitly what kosher slaughter is and devise a test protocol which is consistent with that definition. You do NOT let a biased Ninja Rabbi slaughter the animal to add a source of uncertainty to the study. This is special pleading.

How on earth does the "bias" of the rabbi effect the EEG result! 
Maybe you think these guys really are ninja and can control the electric outpute from cow brains . . .

The argument that you draw conclusions about protocol X by testing wholly different protcol Y is unsound.  It's like testing an experimental drug by conducting clinical trials with a different drug on the theory that using the actual drug you want to bring to market, you would "bias" the test results.

The point of the scientific method is that I don't have to figure out what bias the Ninja Rabbi effect might introduce.

That drug analogy you use is fallacious. Human factors must be removed from testing. Basically, your argument is that the Ninja Rabbi skills could make the difference, not all Rabbi are Ninja's. The study is not about comparing best practice vs best practice, but rather explicitly defined practice vs explicitly defined practice. The point is that you could repeat "your protocol" against with a "less than Ninja" Rabbi and get the opposite result to the one with the Ninja Rabbi.

The scientific method includes doing an experiment to test a certain technique without actually having anyone who know how to properly do the technique (or even the correct tools!)  That's completely asinine.  You have to have a human element since you testing a human action.

As I stated above. You define the technique explicitly and then you follow that definition.

But, to get a bit pedantic. Johnson did not study kosher and halal slaughter, he tested the claim by kosher and halal apologists that pain is minimal. He accounted for the Grandin's long sharp knife by confirming that the pain was due to cut nerves in the neck and that the pain was persistent, serious and could only be prevented by stunning the animal first.

[Viking]

The one thing this thread makes clear (besides the canadian moral superiority that i mentioned earlier) is that i really want to be a ninja rabbi. Guess first i gotta become a jew first. does adult circumcision hurt a lot?

I was operated for a constricted foreskin, so YES. I cried myself to sleep for a week.

there goes my plan.

I have firmosis too, since we're sharing. nuts to gettting that fixed.

Sex is much much better afterwards. If you have fimosis, get it fixed, just avoid having the "less than Ninja" Surgeon do it first only to have the whole thing repeated a month later where the Ninja Surgeon did it right.

[Viking]

Yes I do. How does that excuse you from actually dealing with my arguments rather than impuning my motives? So what if I hate religion. I'm not arguing that religion is bad, I'm arguing that Religion is not a sufficient reason to excuse animal cruelty.

I think your hatred of religion has blinded you to this issue of animal cruelty, which doesn't seem to exist in this case.

Please tell me, how many extra seconds of death pain should animal suffer because god says so?

[Barrister]

Yes I do. How does that excuse you from actually dealing with my arguments rather than impuning my motives? So what if I hate religion. I'm not arguing that religion is bad, I'm arguing that Religion is not a sufficient reason to excuse animal cruelty.

I think your hatred of religion has blinded you to this issue of animal cruelty, which doesn't seem to exist in this case.

Please tell me, how many extra seconds of death pain should animal suffer because god says so?

17

[Viking]

Yes I do. How does that excuse you from actually dealing with my arguments rather than impuning my motives? So what if I hate religion. I'm not arguing that religion is bad, I'm arguing that Religion is not a sufficient reason to excuse animal cruelty.

I think your hatred of religion has blinded you to this issue of animal cruelty, which doesn't seem to exist in this case.

Please tell me, how many extra seconds of death pain should animal suffer because god says so?

17

Well, Johnson suggests that the number might be as high as 120.

[Razgovory]

As I stated above. You define the technique explicitly and then you follow that definition.

But, to get a bit pedantic. Johnson did not study kosher and halal slaughter, he tested the claim by kosher and halal apologists that pain is minimal. He accounted for the Grandin's long sharp knife by confirming that the pain was due to cut nerves in the neck and that the pain was persistent, serious and could only be prevented by stunning the animal first.

If you don't know how to do the technique then you really can't experiment with it.  It's like offering a blind man a rifle and testing it's accuracy based on how well he shoots.

[Razgovory]

Yes I do. How does that excuse you from actually dealing with my arguments rather than impuning my motives? So what if I hate religion. I'm not arguing that religion is bad, I'm arguing that Religion is not a sufficient reason to excuse animal cruelty.

I think your hatred of religion has blinded you to this issue of animal cruelty, which doesn't seem to exist in this case.

Please tell me, how many extra seconds of death pain should animal suffer because god says so?

I'm neither a Muslim or a Jew.

[Viking]

As I stated above. You define the technique explicitly and then you follow that definition.

But, to get a bit pedantic. Johnson did not study kosher and halal slaughter, he tested the claim by kosher and halal apologists that pain is minimal. He accounted for the Grandin's long sharp knife by confirming that the pain was due to cut nerves in the neck and that the pain was persistent, serious and could only be prevented by stunning the animal first.

If you don't know how to do the technique then you really can't experiment with it.  It's like offering a blind man a rifle and testing it's accuracy based on how well he shoots.

No, It's like offering a non-shooter a rifle and a manual and testing it's accuracy when it is mounted in a fixed position.

[Viking]

Yes I do. How does that excuse you from actually dealing with my arguments rather than impuning my motives? So what if I hate religion. I'm not arguing that religion is bad, I'm arguing that Religion is not a sufficient reason to excuse animal cruelty.

I think your hatred of religion has blinded you to this issue of animal cruelty, which doesn't seem to exist in this case.

Please tell me, how many extra seconds of death pain should animal suffer because god says so?

I'm neither a Muslim or a Jew.

That's not answering the question and avoiding replying to my arguments.

[Razgovory]

That's not answering the question and avoiding replying to my arguments.

It's not really my business to know.  I'm neither a ninja or a Rabbi.  Of course, it's a loaded question.

[Viking]

That's not answering the question and avoiding replying to my arguments.

It's not really my business to know.  I'm neither a ninja or a Rabbi.  Of course, it's a loaded question.

Then I suggest you explain why you think the question is unfair?

[Berkut]

As I stated above. You define the technique explicitly and then you follow that definition.

But, to get a bit pedantic. Johnson did not study kosher and halal slaughter, he tested the claim by kosher and halal apologists that pain is minimal. He accounted for the Grandin's long sharp knife by confirming that the pain was due to cut nerves in the neck and that the pain was persistent, serious and could only be prevented by stunning the animal first.

If you don't know how to do the technique then you really can't experiment with it.  It's like offering a blind man a rifle and testing it's accuracy based on how well he shoots.

No, It's like offering a non-shooter a rifle and a manual and testing it's accuracy when it is mounted in a fixed position.

Kind of with viking on this.

Using that anaology, the response that they need a ninja rabbi to do the test is like claiming that the rifle didn't shoot straight because they didn't use an expert sniper who knew how to account for the quirks of that rifle to mitigate the results.

When in fact there is no reason to suppose that everyone out there doing halal butchering is some kind of expert.

I find the idea that an expertly cut neck is painless pretty hard to believe - and to the extent that I might be convinced, it would be dependent on some extremely strictly controlled, nearly perfectly ideal circumstances. *if* the knife is insanely sharp, and *if* the cut is perfectly made, and *if* the knife down not gouge, and *if* the animal remains still...then maybe the pain is limited.

But is that how most halal and kosher meat is processed? Are we that certain that the typical Jewish or Muslim butcher is a lot closer to that Cow Whisperer model, or is it closer to the Agriwhatever model from Indiana, where they are processing a lot of animals pretty fast, without much in the way of modern mechanization to help them, and the guy doing the cutting is probably not taking that much time per animal?