World of Tanks

[Berkut]

Never said anything otherwise.

However, there most certainly IS a "pay to win" since if you don't pay for the Lowe, you aren't going to playing with a T8 heavy at all, and in this game heavier generally beats lighter, and higher tier most certainly beats lower.

You still don't get it. You don't have a higher chance to win in a Löwe than in a PzIII.

I am using "win" colloquially, as in "getting to go out and kills hit instead of rnning from people in Tier 8 heavies in your PzIII". Your odds of winning a match are probably not siginifcantly changed whether or not you buy a Lowe.

You're still facing equal amounts of lower, equal and higher tiers.

Uhhh, no. If you are in a Tier 8, then you are MUCH less likely to face equal or higher tiers than someone in a Tier 4. There are a lot fewer players in Tier 9/10 tanks than there are in Tiers 1-7.

If anything, playing the Löwe is harder since if you buy it before you've gotten experience in playing Heavies, you're going to be facing a lot more experienced opposition.

Except that you don't need experience to play a Lowe since it takes no skill to blow away Tier 6 mediums in a Lowe. Sure, you will still get owned by someone who did not bitch their way into a high tier heavy, but you were getting owned by those guys without the Lowe anyway.

Additionally, on the lower tiers most tanks die relatively rapidly, whereas you need upwards of 5-6 Good hits on most tanks in the higher tiers which means you have to consider your positioning much more than in lower tiers.

You don't need 5-6 hits to kill a T6 medium in a Lowe though. Which is why people like you love them so much.

No, the cost to buy a high tier heavy tank is perfectly consistent. You buy your Lowe, and then you have it, and you get to be one of the Big Dogs long before anyone who is not willing to buy one.

The only way to bypass tiers is to transfer experience.

Patently false. You can buy a Lowe and jump to Tier 8 without transferring a single point of XP.

Your insistence that getting the Löwe means you get to be "one of the Big Dogs" is just silly. If you're in the middle of the pack in a Tier 3-6 battle, it's not a lot different from being in the middle in a 7-10 battle.

Except that the matchmaker doesn't work that way, which is why it is rather common to see Lowes in the same match with my Tier 4 Leopard. If the matchmaker DID limit matches to one tier above and below, that would be an excellent point. Since it does not, and you know that, it is a rather odd lie. Are you so insecure about your Lowe that you are willing to engage in obvious lies in an attempt to justify it?

That is not correct at all. It is not at all uncommon to get into matches where I am up against 4 enemy Lowes. Almost every single one of those would be a mid tier heavy or medium if the Lowe was not available to be bought. I imagine there might be some people who use their Lowe when they have a legitimate high tier heavy available, but that is almost certainly the exception rather than the rule.

Maybe things are different on the US server, but I don't see Löwe in every battle, and I've only seen 4 Löwes on one team very rarely.

It is a rare battle where there are no Lowes, and seeing several on each side is not unusual. Of course, how often they appear has nothing to do with much of anything insofar as it relates to why people like you buy them and think they are badass because they bought the IWIN tank.

Additionally, a guy on the forum actually did a survey on the subject, and he found that people driving Löwes without access to T7+ vehicles were the exception rather than the rule.

Oh well, since a guy on a forum did a survey, I guess that settles it.

Of course. But without the Lowe being available to barbies like you, you barbies would be forced to play on the same even playing field.

Are you just pulling my leg? I'm playing on the same field you are, there is no inherent battle advantage to playing the Löwe as opposed to another T-8.

There is an obvious advantage to playing a Tier 8 heavy as opposed to some not tier 8 not heavy, but of course you know that, which is why you bought the Lowe.

You cannot argue that the Lowe doesn't matter - in that case, why were you so foolish to spend all the money for it? You cannot have your cake and eat it too - either the Lowe gives you a significant advantage, in which case it makes perfect sense why so many people are willing to label themselves as bitches for buying one, or it doesn't give any advantage, in which case you are an idiot for spending cash for something that doesn't even help you.

I haven't argued that it doesn't matter. It does matter. It gave me the opportunity to play Heavies long before I had unlocked access to them (OMG UNFIAR)

Exactly. It is very much unfair. Which is the entire point - you bought yourself into a vehicle that you could not get otherwise, and that vehicle confers a very decided advantage to you, which is exactly why you bought it to begin with. Which is the business model in place - they are letting people buy an unfair advantage.

I am glad you agree with me.

[Berkut]

And of course you earn them a lot faster.

That is true, and that is why I was using the Lowe for a while.  The thing is that I don't have much free time to play the game, and the progress in this game is slow.  Time for me is a much more limited commodity than money.  If I can save myself 20 frustrating battles with a turd like Lee, I will.

Fair enough. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that that has no impact on anyone else playing the game. You are electing to buy yourself more fun at the expense of others. That is fine - that is how the game business model works. But it makes for a much less fair game, since you are letting some people buy their way into an advantage against others in a game that is directly competitive.

Perhaps for you that advantage is not the primary motivation, but you are kidding yourself if you think the slargos of the world out there are the exception, and you are the rule. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most people buy their Lowe thinking that it is their shortcut to being the big dog.

[DGuller]

The Leopard example is a bad one.  Light tanks have the fewest matched tier restrictions of all, due to their scouting ability (and the fact that you don't even have any beyond a certain level). 

[DGuller]

Fair enough. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that that has no impact on anyone else playing the game. You are electing to buy yourself more fun at the expense of others. That is fine - that is how the game business model works. But it makes for a much less fair game, since you are letting some people buy their way into an advantage against others in a game that is directly competitive.

Perhaps for you that advantage is not the primary motivation, but you are kidding yourself if you think the slargos of the world out there are the exception, and you are the rule. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most people buy their Lowe thinking that it is their shortcut to being the big dog.

That depends on your perspective.  Are paying customers who shell out for content the exception, or are are they the rule and the freeloaders are the exception? 

I would think that paying customers are the rule, and the non-paying players are just given a chance to play the game for free, if they're willing to put in much more work.  Given how ultimately the game cannot be a free game for all, and given that most games do not give players the option to play them for free indefinitely, I think my perspective is the more reasonable one.

[Berkut]

Slargos, the only argument you've made that is self-serving crap is to point out that buying a premium account is largely the same thing. In that you are correct, but it misses the issue of scale and competetiveness.

On the issue of scale, a premium account does in fact allow you to progress faster. In fact, I would argue that having a premium account is basically almost necessary to enjoy the game if you are going to play it beyond the first few tiers. But that premium account simply means that you progress through the tiers more quickly, and it is not a huge jump, like just being able to skip over 7 of the most expensive tiers in the game (the 7 tiers path to getting into a Tier 8 heavy). Even with a premium account, I am still not that close to a Tier 8 heavy, even going down the supposedly shorter Soviet heavy path.

And a premium account does not confer an immediate competetive advantage against other players. You still have the same matchmaking service that is going to match you up against the same tiers, and hence you will still have to deal with NOT being the top dog for a very, very long time. Buy yourself a Lowe, and DING! You are in the top echelon of every match, every single time. At most, you will have to deal with opponents 1 or two tiers above you. And maybe it is different from 8-10 as opposed to 5-7, but I am guessing going up against a T9 in a Lowe is not really that much worse than going up against a T5 medium in a T4 medium. IE, it is a slight disadvantage, but better play can overcome it. The Lowe gives you a high tier and a heavy tank.

While better play is not going to overcome going up against a Lowe in a T5. You are just going to die the majority of the time if you cannot run fast enough.

Things that are comparable to the Lowe is stuff like gold ammo, where having it just plain makes you better. But I don't get the feeling that most people find gold ammo to be worth the cost, hence it is not really an issue. ON the other hand, there is no way to really know if some wallet warrior is using it, so I suppose it isn't as easy to get them all worked up as it is to mock the Lowetards.

[Berkut]

Fair enough. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that that has no impact on anyone else playing the game. You are electing to buy yourself more fun at the expense of others. That is fine - that is how the game business model works. But it makes for a much less fair game, since you are letting some people buy their way into an advantage against others in a game that is directly competitive.

Perhaps for you that advantage is not the primary motivation, but you are kidding yourself if you think the slargos of the world out there are the exception, and you are the rule. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most people buy their Lowe thinking that it is their shortcut to being the big dog.

That depends on your perspective.  Are paying customers who shell out for content the exception, or are are they the rule and the freeloaders are the exception? 

I would think that paying customers are the rule, and the non-paying players are just given a chance to play the game for free, if they're willing to put in much more work.  Given how ultimately the game cannot be a free game for all, and given that most games do not give players the option to play them for free indefinitely, I think my perspective is the more reasonable one.

I agree to the extent that I consider premium access the default game level.

Buying a Lowe so you can have the biggest e-dick is another level entirely though.

[Berkut]

The Leopard example is a bad one.  Light tanks have the fewest matched tier restrictions of all, due to their scouting ability (and the fact that you don't even have any beyond a certain level). 

Shrug, that doesn't really matter - you start getting the pleasure of dieing to people in Lowes who "just want to earn XP faster" in tier 4 mediums as well.

And if those players didn't have Lowes, they would be right there with you in a T5 or T6 doing the grind with you.

[DGuller]

Buy yourself a Lowe, and DING! You are in the top echelon of every match, every single time.

That argument will never die, will it?  Take my word for it, every time you mention it, it discredits all your other points, because you just can't imagine how misinformed it sounds.

At most, you will have to deal with opponents 1 or two tiers above you. And maybe it is different from 8-10 as opposed to 5-7, but I am guessing going up against a T9 in a Lowe is not really that much worse than going up against a T5 medium in a T4 medium.

That has not been my experience.  In my experience, it's a lot easier to be a giant killer in lower tiers.  One reason may be that derp guns are more prevalent there, so you can always take down a big catch if you hit it right.  Another reason is that players are far less experienced in lower tiers.  Yet another reason is that until you get to really high tiers, it's rare to encounter a tank that you just can't penetrade anywhere except a weak spot.  However, some high tier contraptions like Maus carry half the mine's worth of iron on them.

[Berkut]

Buy yourself a Lowe, and DING! You are in the top echelon of every match, every single time.

That argument will never die, will it?  Take my word for it, every time you mention it, it discredits all your other points, because you just can't imagine how misinformed it sounds.

The funny thing is that you keep saying this, but don't actually back it up with anything.

How am I wrong? In a T5 medium, in a typical battle with a even distribution above and below me, I am going to have a bunch of vehicles I can easily kill, several that are a good match, and a few that I cannot touch.

If I am in a T8 Heavy, there cannot be all that many much higher than me - there is only 1 tier above me for mediums and TDs, and 2 tiers for heavies! And you can look at the number of players online - only a tiny fraction are crusing around in T10 heavies. In fact, most of the time I look at the matchmaker, there are none or maybe a couple online in the pool. So in your Lowe, the majority of the time you are going to be in matches where most of the players are below or at your level, with a very few high enough that they will dominate you in the manner that you dominate everything else.

You keep saying this is simply not true, and if only I had games in a Lowe, I would understand why - but refuse to explain why. I suspect that the "why" is that if I were the kind of person inclined to buy a shortcut, I would be the kind of person inclined towards the mental gymnastics necessary to convince myself it really isn't much of a shortcut at all, really.

At most, you will have to deal with opponents 1 or two tiers above you. And maybe it is different from 8-10 as opposed to 5-7, but I am guessing going up against a T9 in a Lowe is not really that much worse than going up against a T5 medium in a T4 medium.

That has not been my experience.  In my experience, it's a lot easier to be a giant killer in lower tiers.

In my experience, as I move up in Tiers, it is easier to be the big dog, simply because the odds of you being the top tier in a fight instead of a middle or low tier go way up. I don't think anyone is a giant killer often enough that it really matters - what matters are your chances of being relevant in a fight, or just chum for the high tier heavies.

  One reason may be that derp guns are more prevalent there, so you can always take down a big catch if you hit it right.  Another reason is that players are far less experienced in lower tiers.  Yet another reason is that until you get to really high tiers, it's rare to encounter a tank that you just can't penetrade anywhere except a weak spot.

<boggle>
I *constantly* run up against tanks I cannot penetrate anywhere, must less in a weak spot. A bunch of them are called "Lowes". The lower tier vehicels that can mount a gun that can hurt vehicles much higher than themselves are the exception, not the rule.

  However, some high tier contraptions like Maus carry half the mine's worth of iron on them.

You really think the relevant comparison is to the highest tier heavy in the entire game? Do you run into the Maus a lot in your Lowe? I've run into them a few times in my DB, even once in my JagdPzIV (which I thought from the matchmaker should not even be possible). But more to the point, a Lowe running into a Maus is to be expected - they are both high tier heavy tanks. A poor little PZIV running into a entire passel of wallet warriors and their Lowes is par for the course. And at least you can say "Hey, that Maus driver put in his time and work to get what he got so he can roll over me like a cheap tin can".

The Lowe driver did nothing to get his tank that can kill almost everything out there, and is impervious to half the stuff it faces...except spend some money.

[DGuller]

You keep saying this is simply not true, and if only I had games in a Lowe, I would understand why - but refuse to explain why. I suspect that the "why" is that if I were the kind of person inclined to buy a shortcut, I would be the kind of person inclined towards the mental gymnastics necessary to convince myself it really isn't much of a shortcut at all, really.

Actually, I do not refuse to explain why, it is you who refuses to listen to the explanation, and instead chooses to speculate about my motives.

I posted the stats for every German heavy tree tank I played long enough to have a good sample.  When I play the tanks, I try to do the best I can, I do not intentionally sandbag in a Lowe so that I can make my point in a debate like this.

My stats clearly show that Lowe is a less dominating tank, in the battles it fights, than either Pz IV or VK 3601.  The stats also flatter Lowe a little, because premium tanks don't have the beginning stretches where the stock configuration drags down the averages.  I also had max kills of 7 and 8 with the "merit" tanks, whereas my best streak in Lowe is 3, IIRC.

The numbers, at least where my performance is concerned, do not in any way support your theory.  Lowe simply doesn't get to dominate the field nearly as often as Pz IV or VK 3601.  Yeah, you may feel that it's unfair if Lowes do get to dominate, whereas guys in Pz IV or VK 3601 earned it, but then it's a different point.  The one you're making just isn't holding any water.

[Berkut]

My point is not dependent on every single person everywhere dominating their matches in Lowes even when they cherry pick out comparisons where they've done better outside a Lowe - so your singular "example" where you select out some cases where you've done better in other vehicles has little, if any, bearing on my point.

So no, your particular example does not explain why at all. You could just suck in a Lowe, or it could be that you've not had sufficient matches for its superiority to establish itself, or you could just be unlucky. Why don't you compare how you do in your Lowe to how you do in all your tanks? Why have you selected just two to compare it with? I imagine that is because they are the two best ratios you have.

Your stats do NOT clearly show that the Lowe is not better than other non purchased vehicels. All they show is that you've had better succcess in two vehicles than you have had in your Lowe. I would think you would understand that cherry picking comparisons would invalidate your point.

As far as questioning your motives, the entire discussion is about the motives of people who spend a bunch of cash to jump into tanks they have not earned. You cite as your example your 37 matches in a Lowe, while ignoring the fact that slargos has 300 matches in his - and I am sure he does MUCH better in his other tanks, which is why he has 300 matches in his Lowe...right?

[Habbaku]

the entire discussion is about the motives of people who spend a bunch of cash to jump into tanks they have not earned.

[DGuller]

So no, your particular example does not explain why at all. You could just suck in a Lowe, or it could be that you've not had sufficient matches for its superiority to establish itself, or you could just be unlucky. Why don't you compare how you do in your Lowe to how you do in all your tanks? Why have you selected just two to compare it with? I imagine that is because they are the two best ratios you have.

Your imagination needs to develop more faith in other people.

I did not cherrypick the stats, I just thought that the most appropriate comparison would be with the tanks on the similar path to Lowe, especially those that you don't have to work too long for.  Out of the German tanks in the heavy tree, only Pz IV and 3601 had a lot of games.  Maybe in a couple of days, I'll have a big enough sample for Tiger as well.

For all the tanks combined, the kills/games ratio is about what it is for Lowe, at 2/3.  I'll confirm that when I open the game next time.  That would be a less useful number, though, because it would include arty stats (much higher than for tanks, generally), as well as light tank stats (much lower than for tanks, generally).

As far as questioning your motives, the entire discussion is about the motives of people who spend a bunch of cash to jump into tanks they have not earned. You cite as your example your 37 matches in a Lowe, while ignoring the fact that slargos has 300 matches in his - and I am sure he does MUCH better in his other tanks, which is why he has 300 matches in his Lowe...right?

It's actually 52 matches, it's 37 kills.  I do not know Slarg's stats in Lowe, and how they compare to the totals.

[Slargos]

WOW. 

Now you've really gone off the deep end, Berkut.

I don't know if you're trolling me, or if you're really that ignorant/stupid, but I guess either way we're not really getting anywhere. Have fun with your game, man. 

[Berkut]

AHhh, I see we've moved into the part of the debate where you abandon any pretense of making actual arguments and just go with the straight "You are so stupid!" attacks. I rest my case. Enjoy your Lowe.