Late Republican Rome

[Valmy]

Are there any serious people who dispute my claims?

I find it difficult because both the Middle Ages and Classical periods were both really long with great regional variety.

I always found the "free marriage" practice the Romans did from time to time to be one of the most enlightened forms of marriage in history.  But it would be a tad irresponsible to act like that was typical to the point I could use it to prove Classical superiority over their Medieval descendents.

[The Minsky Moment]

I am aware of no "pogroms" among Jews in Alexandria in Roman times

Probably thinking about the Cyprus or Bar Kochba uprisings (palestine), although even those require fully crediting Cassius Dio's account.  Since Palestinian rabbis are busy putting together the Mishnah in Palestine only a few decades later, total expulsion either did not happen or was not seriously enforced.

[Razgovory]

I am aware of no "pogroms" among Jews in Alexandria in Roman times

Probably thinking about the Cyprus or Bar Kochba uprisings (palestine), although even those require fully crediting Cassius Dio's account.  Since Palestinian rabbis are busy putting together the Mishnah in Palestine only a few decades later, total expulsion either did not happen or was not seriously enforced.

Philo of Alexandria of mentions this.

[alfred russel]

Au contraire, it could be a very effective way to get fields planted.  If you look at a monastery from an economic perspective, it is a corporation that mobilizes physical, and intellectual capital into a unit in a historical period where capital accumulation was otherwise very difficult.  Monasteries led the clearing of the heavily forested continent and were often in the forefront of applying new technologies and techniques in the management of their patrimony.

I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin. We are in agreement that monastaries are some of the major centers of (intellectual and physical) capital in medieval Europe. You look at their corresponding output and saying they are effective, while I'm looking at their religious mission and saying this wasn't the most effective way to deploy capital.

[alfred russel]

Ancient Romans had no problem with killing Witches or launching internal military campaigns.  Antisemitism was already well rooted in the classical world.  There are reports of Pogroms against Jews in Alexandria, and I imagine they occurred else where as well.  Jews were banned in ancient Rome by Claudius.

Raz, neither the romans nor medieval europeans were models of tolerance. I think the pagan romans were more tolerant of religious differences on the balance. But there is no sense arguing about this because "classical rome" and "medieval europe" cover such a huge amount of time and territory we could spend the rest of our lives exchanging examples and never get anywhere.

[The Minsky Moment]

I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin. We are in agreement that monastaries are some of the major centers of (intellectual and physical) capital in medieval Europe. You look at their corresponding output and saying they are effective, while I'm looking at their religious mission and saying this wasn't the most effective way to deploy capital.

The religious mission was critical to mobilizing that capital in the efficient way.  Secular lords tended to have bad habits like expending surpluses on conspicuous consumption, raising retainers to mount raids and fight others, etc.  Monasteries were institutions that could absorb surpluses and redeploy them productively; the religiuous mission was the way to lure in the capital.  While prayers in and of themselves are of questionable economic utility, the same can be said in our world of marketing and advertising, fund-raising rounds, administrative overhead.

[Eddie Teach]

What's your evidence of customary slaughter of surrendering towns in classical era?

It wasn't customary, it was more common to enslave them, as that gave the general beaucoup denarii. But it was more commonly accepted that the fate of those lives was at the whim of the conqueror. The principle of no storm, no sack was an early sign of recognition that even during wartime there are rules that must be followed.

[alfred russel]

I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin. We are in agreement that monastaries are some of the major centers of (intellectual and physical) capital in medieval Europe. You look at their corresponding output and saying they are effective, while I'm looking at their religious mission and saying this wasn't the most effective way to deploy capital.

The religious mission was critical to mobilizing that capital in the efficient way.  Secular lords tended to have bad habits like expending surpluses on conspicuous consumption, raising retainers to mount raids and fight others, etc.  Monasteries were institutions that could absorb surpluses and redeploy them productively; the religiuous mission was the way to lure in the capital.  While prayers in and of themselves are of questionable economic utility, the same can be said in our world of marketing and advertising, fund-raising rounds, administrative overhead.

In the context of the middle ages, monastaries performed a critical role for the reasons you mention, and one that secular institutions were unable to fill.

But all else being equal, I'd rather not have the educated concentrated into religious instititions where secular matters were considered peripheral to giving glory to god. Monasteries may have often been the only way to preserve learning for some medieval societies, but that wasn't the case in ancient rome. In my book, advantage rome.

[Sahib]

Ancient Romans had no problem with killing Witches or launching internal military campaigns.  Antisemitism was already well rooted in the classical world.  There are reports of Pogroms against Jews in Alexandria, and I imagine they occurred else where as well.  Jews were banned in ancient Rome by Claudius.

Actually Claudius was accused of being a Jewish bastard by the leader of anti-Jewish faction in Alexandria, due to his supposedly pro-Jewish stance. The use of the term "Pogrom" to describe the conflicts between Greeks and Jews in Alexandria is disputed.

[Malthus]

Ancient Romans had no problem with killing Witches ...

From whence do you get this?

Antisemitism was already well rooted in the classical world.  There are reports of Pogroms against Jews in Alexandria, and I imagine they occurred else where as well.  Jews were banned in ancient Rome by Claudius.

I am aware of no "pogroms" among Jews in Alexandria in Roman times (though there was ethnic tensions between Alexandrian Greeks and Jews, but nothing antisemitic), nor does any credible source support the claim that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome (Josephus, a Jew writing about Jewish history, doesn't mention it in Antiquities of the Jews ).  Suetonius in his twelve Caesars volume on Claudius apparently mentions that some Jewish troublemakers were expelled, but this is hardly antisemitism.

I don't think there is much or anything in the evidence that the Roman authorities hated Judaism or Jews (though of course they were quick to crack down with usual Roman ruthelessness on Jewish resistance to their rule). Mostly, they seem to have viewed Judaism as a traditional, and thus acceptable, local religion, with admittedly wierd practices they (the Romans) were willing to respect and tolerate as long as they obeyed Rome's will in matters political.

One illustrative example: the Jews angered the (allegedly insane) emperor Caligula by refusing to worship his statue: he ordered a statue of himself erected in the Temple of Jerusalem. The Governor of Syria managed to delay that order to avoid a revolt.

[Interestingly, while Caligula rescinded the order to erect the statue, he was so angered at the Governor for disobeying him, he ordered him to commit suicide; but owing to the chance of travel, the news of Caligula's assassination reached him before the order!]

This is from Josephus [corroberated by Philo]

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XVIII#Chapter_8

Edit: if true, that Governor was certainly a man of outstanding moral courage.

Edit: very interesting footnote, at least for me:

This. Publius Petronius was after this still president of Syria, under Cladius, and, at the desire of Agrippa, published a severe decree against the inhabitants of Dora, who, in a sort of intitation of Caius, had set op a statue of Claudius in a Jewish synagogue there. This decree is extant, B. XIX. ch. 6. sect. 3, and greatly confirms the present accounts of Josephus, as do the other decrees of Claudius, relating to the like Jewish affairs, B. XIX. ch. 5. sect. 2, 3, to which I refer the inquisitive reader.

I worked for a summer on the dig at Tel Dora.

[The Minsky Moment]

But all else being equal, I'd rather not have the educated concentrated into religious instititions where secular matters were considered peripheral to giving glory to god. Monasteries may have often been the only way to preserve learning for some medieval societies, but that wasn't the case in ancient rome. In my book, advantage rome.

In ancient Rome, learning was preserved among a tiny literate elite class for which such learning was considered a mark of cultivation but which had little interest in developing that thought any further.  There is some derivative work in the Stoic or Epicurian traditions, Plotinus' reworking of Plato, Porphyry's Isagoge and that's about it.  Far more original work was done in the Christian West during the Middle Ages . . .

[alfred russel]

In ancient Rome, learning was preserved among a tiny literate elite class for which such learning was considered a mark of cultivation but which had little interest in developing that thought any further.  There is some derivative work in the Stoic or Epicurian traditions, Plotinus' reworking of Plato, Porphyry's Isagoge and that's about it.  Far more original work was done in the Christian West during the Middle Ages . . .

There is something to be said for living in a society that had a sound legal system, road network, sound water supply, etc. There is a reason when the works of the classical world were rediscovered the medieval christians considered their own era to be the "dark ages." It isn't all about philospohy (which in the middle ages was almost entirely driven by christianity--solid work in that field is to be expected considering the resources they devoted to contemplation).

[Razgovory]

I think that the Romans get a pass on tolerance that isn't entirely deserved.  I believe it comes from three factors:

1. Many want to project a positive image on the Romans (late medieval and Renaissance were really bad about this).

2.  A misunderstanding of how Roman religion worked

3.  Paucity of sources that remain from the time period.

[Valmy]

The anti-intellectualism in Rome, even for things they seemed to value like mathmatics and engineering, is stupifying.  Nobody can really explain to me why since innovations in political structures, legal reforms, and military tactics seemed to come easily enough to the Romans. 

[Monoriu]

The anti-intellectualism in Rome, even for things they seemed to value like mathmatics and engineering, is stupifying.  Nobody can really explain to me why since innovations in political structures, legal reforms, and military tactics seemed to come easily enough to the Romans.

In my first few years at school/kindergarten, I was really good at mathematics.  They gave me problems like x produces bread at the rate of y per hour, and z does so at double the rate, so how much bread is produced per hour if there were so many people like x and so many like z. 

But as soon as algebra and equations were introduced at a later stage, I became completely stuck.  I just cannot deal with the abstract. 

Maybe the Romans were a bit similar?  Only accepted solutions that had immediate applications, but couldn't deal with abstract theories, concepts and thoughts that were necessary for long-term intellectual growth?