Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Berkut]

That is clearly an indication that the free market is not working, and only a union can possibly restore free market principles. Why, if Strix doesn't make enough cash with a guarantee of never being fired, clearly the free market is Teh Brokened.

Strix is big on unions, you know. Comes from being such an ardent Republican and all.

Heh.  I remember Strix saying several times that he wasn't a Republican.  Kinda like you do.

You really are almost completely useless. This obsession is a little weird.

[Caliga]

Raz seems to have trouble understanding that most ordinary people are not ideological slaves to their party and always think precisely what the platform tells them to think. 

[grumbler]

Well shit Strix. NY is at will, and NC is at will. In either state you can have employment contracts that restrict termination, including through collective bargaining agreements. NY is giving you a better deal, probably in a large part because you are represented by a union.

My only point was that NY is at will and NC is at will too. If you didn't say NY wasn't at will, I wouldn't have posted anything.

What I like about Strix is that he not only lacks reading comprehension skills, but that he exploits that lack through arrogant ignorance!    Most amusing!

Yes, New York is an "at-will" state, like NC (and Virginia, for that matter).  That does not, of course, mean that employment is completely "at will,"  as express or implied contracts will limit the freedom of employers or employees.

As for Strix's contention that he understands the NY state employment contract better because he read it, I doubt it.  I think that a random guess on the part of a person who has never seen one is likelier to be true than Strix's tortured attempts to interpret those little black squiggles.

[grumbler]

Heh.  I remember Strix saying several times that he wasn't a Republican.  Kinda like you do.

You really are almost completely useless. This obsession is a little weird.

I find it more than a bit creepy.  It is almost like he was the Lone Monkey, trying to make up for the missing 999,999 by random typing.  Every hundredth post of his makes sense.

[Strix]

Well shit Strix. NY is at will, and NC is at will. In either state you can have employment contracts that restrict termination, including through collective bargaining agreements. NY is giving you a better deal, probably in a large part because you are represented by a union.

My only point was that NY is at will and NC is at will too. If you didn't say NY wasn't at will, I wouldn't have posted anything.

Well shit alfred, this is a thread about Unions. NY is a union state and therefore not at will while NC is non-union (since state employees cannot unionize) and therefore at will.

[Strix]

That is clearly an indication that the free market is not working, and only a union can possibly restore free market principles. Why, if Strix doesn't make enough cash with a guarantee of never being fired, clearly the free market is Teh Brokened.

Strix is big on unions, you know. Comes from being such an ardent Republican and all.

Heh.  I remember Strix saying several times that he wasn't a Republican.  Kinda like you do.

Ironic isn't it Raz. 

Berkut is the only being on the planet capable of being his own person and not defined by a party.

I haven't been a Republican for several years now. I am a registered independent.

[crazy canuck]

My company has a document to sign for new hires that states that anyone engaging in acts that may be viewed as attempts to form a union or to bring union representation into the company are subject to immediate termination.

In all jurisdictions in Canada the remedy for this kind of practice would be an order by the Labour Board that a union be certified as the bargaining agent for all the employees of the company.

What remedies are there in the US for this kind of practice?

[Strix]

What I like about Strix is that he not only lacks reading comprehension skills, but that he exploits that lack through arrogant ignorance!    Most amusing!

Yes, New York is an "at-will" state, like NC (and Virginia, for that matter).  That does not, of course, mean that employment is completely "at will,"  as express or implied contracts will limit the freedom of employers or employees.

As for Strix's contention that he understands the NY state employment contract better because he read it, I doubt it.  I think that a random guess on the part of a person who has never seen one is likelier to be true than Strix's tortured attempts to interpret those little black squiggles.

Your ignorance would amuse me if it wasn't so sad.   

I direct you to the title of the thread. I further direct you to try to engage your reading comprehension skills. You know that thing you accuse others of not possessing. If you do than you will realize much of the discussion has revolved around comparing and contrasting a union state like NY which is not "at will" because of their collectively bargained agreement with the state and NC which does not have (nor allow) a state worker union that collectively bargains an employment agreement.

Perhaps after you have done so you might add something useful to the discussion rather than ignorant post after ignorant post.

You might also read up on the public employee union contracts of NY so you have a clue about what is being discussed.

Of course, you are incapable of either because you're grumbler.

[Strix]

If you need to wait five years to enjoy good mission plan, you're waiting for a job that overpays.  A job that pays a market rate doesn't have lines of potential employees waiting for years.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If you have to wait five years for a job to have an opening it means that it's a job worth waiting to get. What a job pays is only one factor in the overall way that a job is rated.

You seem to be arguing that a high turnover/vacancy rate = free market. Perhaps you could explain that concept further.

[DGuller]

Actually, the fact that companies will pull shit like this is about the only argument in favor of unions that I can think of.  The problem is, that the kind of people who get this pulled on them because they don't know any better are going to also get crap pulled on them with a union in place, because they're so clueless that they also won't know that they can report this stuff to their union rep.

Agreed.  There is no free market without informed choice.

[DGuller]

That makes no sense whatsoever. If you have to wait five years for a job to have an opening it means that it's a job worth waiting to get.

Yes, a job that grossly overpays is certainly worth waiting to get, no argument there.

What a job pays is only one factor in the overall way that a job is rated.

Yes, it is only one factor.  However, if other factors are more favorable than average, then pay should be less favorable than average.  If job conditions are great, then there would be many people wanting to get it for those conditions.  Therefore, in a free market, employer would be able to get away with offering lower wages for those jobs, to the point that some of those people considering the job for those great conditions would change their mind once they see the wages.

You seem to be arguing that a high turnover/vacancy rate = free market. Perhaps you could explain that concept further.

Sure.  In free market system, at market prices, there is a lot of indifference.  When it comes to jobs, it means that you are indifferent between staying on the job and leaving.  If there is no such indifference, and no one ever considers leaving once they get the job, then the job is "too good".  People with the job consider having it to be a windfall, and would go to great lengths to keep it.

[Berkut]

People with the job consider having it to be a windfall, and would go to great lengths to keep it.

Even going so far as to compromise what little political principles they might have?

Surely not that far...

[Strix]

Raz seems to have trouble understanding that most ordinary people are not ideological slaves to their party and always think precisely what the platform tells them to think. 

Berkut has the same issue.

[dps]

Strix really doesn't have a clue what "at-will" means, does he?

Funny story--a former co-worker of mine was very anti-union, because of experiences she had with a union she had belonged to.  She had worked at a grocery store, and she and her co-workers there had voted in a union because they felt mistreated.  Their biggest concern was job secutity.  When the union came in, the union leaders negotiated a contract that still stated that employees were hired at-will and could be terminated at any time without notice at the discretion of management.  The only thing different was that the employees got 1 more week of paid vacation a year, and there was now a union shop in place, so they had to pay $35 a pay period in union dues.  They didn't even get a pay raise, or even a contractually agreed on pay scale--the contract left pay rates to the discretion of management as well.

She had voted against the proposed contract, but apparantly her co-workers were so ticked at the company that they viewed the union leaders as saviours, and when the leaders told them it was a good contract, they bought that line and approved it, though apparantly it was a narrow margin.  She left there as soon as she could find another job.

Of course, most unions don't do that bad of a job representing their members--it's obviously an extreme case--but it is a bit instructive, as well as quite amusing.

[Neil]

Come now guys, we all know that there's no way that Strix can back down on this issue.  He's a guy who's proud of what he does, and feels that he's really contributing to society.  How can he admit that he's overpaid?

No matter how angry Berkut gets or how badly the Languish Professionals undress his arguments, he's not going to budge an inch, because to do so would be to say that he's less valuable.