The Best Sci-Fi Film Never Made

[Caliga]

Agree completely.  He was much better at explaining the universe than trying to create a credible character.  I never understood why he kept writing bad SF for so long when writing good science had finally started to pay.

Oh, I freely admit Asimov wasn't the best at character development and dialogue.  But I really like his ideas at a higher level and I felt like he was good at making various subplots come together in an interesting way.

[Ed Anger]

HAY EVERYBODY! Bel Riose is Belisarius.

[Caliga]

HAY EVERYBODY! Bel Riose is Belisarius.

[Ideologue]

Edit: I actually have a bit of the same criticism of 1984, which I have actually read as opposed to just the Wikipedia page thereof, but at least Orwell was writing at a time that such regimes did seem possible, and perhaps did his own small part in making them impossible, versus, you know, writing a story about how Mormons and/or Muslims suck in 1985.  But maybe I minimize the importance of adding one's voice, in a compelling way, to the already-existing consensus within Western civilization that such a dystopia would be pretty awful.

I don't think Orwell ever visited the Soviet Union and his only direct experience with it was when his communist allies purged his militia.  While not all the elements of 1984 were true in Stalinist Russia, many of the themes were seen in later communist states.  Extreme surveillance in East Germany, the simplification of society in Cambodia, the use of a fake war to justify shortages in North Korea.  Though in 1984 it's implied that the war exists to create shortages rather then the war existing to explain the shortages.  In some ways, no totalitarian regime was ever as bad as the one in 1984.  In other ways many were far, far worse.

Personally, I'm not really sure that 1984 is a possible society.  It's too extreme, and its totalitarianism too perfect: the only real dissidents are people reading a made-up book, no one seems to have any sense, there is absolutely no contact with the outside world when it takes place in a country that is (to my understanding) not capable of autarky, Ingsoc itself appears to be a monolith with no competing factions, etc.

There's also no really obvious road from the United Kingdom to Oceania, or explanation why Europe or the Anglo world permits Ingsoc to retain power, given the heavy implication that Eurasia and East Asia do not exist, as such.

Interestingly, V For Vendetta (the comic), heavily influenced by 1984, was probably slightly more realistic.  It gave a history of how fascism descended on Britain, provided an actual war and anti-terrorist campaign (versus Scotland and Ireland) to drive fear, explains that nuclear war eliminated the possibility of foreign intervention from elsewhere, and all the party members were all very human, prone to power struggles, mistakes, and compromising lechery, as well as guilt and honor.  Indeed, all the characters are recognizably human (except, arguably, V), possessing the faculties of memory and emotion which were being "removed" from the citizenry in 1984--as if that were achievable by nothing more profound than defacing some history books and a dictionary.

I mean, taking your examples, East Germany did have an amazingly perverse informer culture, but everyone still hated it; the Khmer Rouge went so far off the deep end a fellow communist nation invaded them; and the DPRK is barely able to continue on, economically and agriculturally, and presumably the top people are biding their time until Kim bites it.  (On the other hand, that someone has not removed the leadership already is a testament to human cowardice.)

But I guess "Imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for several decades, until the leg breaks" doesn't sound as good as "forever."

I do recognize that the over-the-top Nazicommie regime in 1984 was part of the point, however.

[Josquius]

Why does the world let North Korea continue to exist?
And thats when the existance of its nukes is very dubious.

[Slargos]

Edit: I actually have a bit of the same criticism of 1984, which I have actually read as opposed to just the Wikipedia page thereof, but at least Orwell was writing at a time that such regimes did seem possible, and perhaps did his own small part in making them impossible, versus, you know, writing a story about how Mormons and/or Muslims suck in 1985.  But maybe I minimize the importance of adding one's voice, in a compelling way, to the already-existing consensus within Western civilization that such a dystopia would be pretty awful.

I don't think Orwell ever visited the Soviet Union and his only direct experience with it was when his communist allies purged his militia.  While not all the elements of 1984 were true in Stalinist Russia, many of the themes were seen in later communist states.  Extreme surveillance in East Germany, the simplification of society in Cambodia, the use of a fake war to justify shortages in North Korea.  Though in 1984 it's implied that the war exists to create shortages rather then the war existing to explain the shortages.  In some ways, no totalitarian regime was ever as bad as the one in 1984.  In other ways many were far, far worse.

Personally, I'm not really sure that 1984 is a possible society.  It's too extreme, and its totalitarianism too perfect: the only real dissidents are people reading a made-up book, no one seems to have any sense, there is absolutely no contact with the outside world when it takes place in a country that is (to my understanding) not capable of autarky, Ingsoc itself appears to be a monolith with no competing factions, etc.

There's also no really obvious road from the United Kingdom to Oceania, or explanation why Europe or the Anglo world permits Ingsoc to retain power, given the heavy implication that Eurasia and East Asia do not exist, as such.

Interestingly, V For Vendetta (the comic), heavily influenced by 1984, was probably slightly more realistic.  It gave a history of how fascism descended on Britain, provided an actual war and anti-terrorist campaign (versus Scotland and Ireland) to drive fear, explains that nuclear war eliminated the possibility of foreign intervention from elsewhere, and all the party members were all very human, prone to power struggles, mistakes, and compromising lechery, as well as guilt and honor.  Indeed, all the characters are recognizably human (except, arguably, V), possessing the faculties of memory and emotion which were being "removed" from the citizenry in 1984--as if that were achievable by nothing more profound than defacing some history books and a dictionary.

I mean, taking your examples, East Germany did have an amazingly perverse informer culture, but everyone still hated it; the Khmer Rouge went so far off the deep end a fellow communist nation invaded them; and the DPRK is barely able to continue on, economically and agriculturally, and presumably the top people are biding their time until Kim bites it.  (On the other hand, that someone has not removed the leadership already is a testament to human cowardice.)

But I guess "Imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for several decades, until the leg breaks" doesn't sound as good as "forever."

I do recognize that the over-the-top Nazicommie regime in 1984 was part of the point, however.

Through dedicated propaganda you can make anything seem self-evident and natural.

Just look at the progress from healthy racism during the 50s to today's panic about saying something that might possibly be misconstrued as racist.

Niggardly, nappy-headed hos.

[Siege]

this is bullshit/44

S.M. Stirling, Henry Turteldove, Davidb Drake, David Weber,. amd John Ringo Star are great.

[Razgovory]

I demand more Gor.

There was a movie made from that.  I saw it on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

[Ed Anger]

I demand more Gor.

There was a movie made from that.  I saw it on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Need more.

[Ideologue]

I demand more Gor.

There was a movie made from that.  I saw it on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Cabot!

[jamesww]

I demand more Gor.

There was a movie made from that.  I saw it on Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Need more.

Yes the movie sounds terrible.

Now I'm annoyed, why on earth did I sell my gor books ?

[Razgovory]

A more important question is why did you buy them.

[Caliga]

Is Gor the series like Conan except it's got spaceships and more sex?

[jamesww]

A more important question is why did you buy them.

To read in school in my teenage years ?

Whats weird is no one seemed bothered about me reading them in school, stranger still, given that later in the series they degenerated into misogynistic S&M, some of my female school friends were quite interested in them.

[Siege]

There is a movie called Gor.
Its on Netflix.