Mac or PC? And what does it say about you?

[Barrister]

I'm playing around on dell.com, and I'm getting workstations with a Westmere W3550 for about $2000.

I can't find an exact match though for all specs, but certainly nothing remotely close to half the price.

[DontSayBanana]

We're missing a major, major point here.  Sure, Apple stocks hideously high-end components in its machines.  Now, under what conditions are you actually ever going to see that machine under full load?  It's not so much a $2,000 stroller as it is like buying a tractor trailer to move one couch, especially when you consider that the operational lifetime of a Mac isn't significantly longer than a PC (in the case of the MacBook Pros, it can actually be less due to piss-poor cooling design).

A lot of the hype is also brute-force "solutions" to problems that aren't really solved.  A badly-threaded application is going to run slow on either an AMD Athlon II X4 640 (a budget processor- can be got for about $100) or an Intel Xeon E5492.

Finally, Apple's been guilty of screw-ups that "performance" PC-builders have been making since the advent of ATX and PnP- putting together components that don't work together.  The girlfriend's MBP had to go back to Apple four times with numerous threats of no coverage for what turned out to be a hacky, glitchy attempt to SLi two incompatible nVidia GPUs (which weren't recalled, despite the same problem resulting in a recall of iMacs with the same chipset).

I'd actually be willing to give Apple a shot if they just learned one critical lesson: finesse usually beats brute force where computers are concerned (and extends operational lifetime, to boot).

[OttoVonBismarck]

Just as I expected, a big long conversation about why the i7 is comparable to a Xeon.

Why don't you just do what I asked - find me a comparable system, with the same components, and try and show how it is half the price.  It's not as if there aren't plenty of Xeon workstations out there.

The Mac Pro, by the way, while it can be specced out as a server, is normally classified as a workstation, not a desktop.

Well, like I said, the price difference is known, you can make an adjustment for there.

Case: NZXT Phantom Full Tower $139.99
Motherboard: Asus P6T WS PRO LGA 1366 $279.99
Cpu: Intel Xeon W3530 $314.99
Memory: 8 GB Memory $139.99
GPU: ATI Radeon 5770 1 GB $139.99
HDD: 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm $89.99
PSU: Rosewill 1000W Continuous PSU $129.99
Optical: CD/DVD Burner $20.99

Total: $1255.92

I don't need to search the entire internet to find a custom PC builder that will build a system for around this price. Even assuming a nice markup (iBUYPOWER systems go for $200-300 more than raw components) we're still stacking it up against a $2800 Mac Pro.

[OttoVonBismarck]

And the issue of the i7 versus the Xeon is very salient because it high lights Apple's business model.

Apple isn't in the business of giving you great value for your money, they are in the business of creating targeted niches where they can create massive profits. (That's not bad by the way, I own stock in Apple and most of you do as well through mutual funds or pension systems.)

If I just want a nice, well made, powerful desktop PC Apple can't help me.

They can give me a nice All-in-One, with a great display, but built with notebook parts.

They can give me a small form factor PC, for a reasonable price, but built with notebook parts.

They can give me a workstation that almost fits the bill, but then they slap a server processor in it and jack the price up 100% over materials.  As a consumer who isn't looking to get a multi-CPU system, buying a Mac Pro workstation with one CPU (their entry model) and a nice graphics card it's obvious I'm wanting a PC for home personal use. Why do I need an extra CPU socket in the mobo, and a server processor? I'd much rather you slap an i7 in there and knock $100 off the price since you don't have to furnish me with a multi-socket mother board and a server CPU.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I should also say I'm not anti-Apple at all.

Markets where I've considered buying Apple (or have bought Apple):

Notebooks: A market with a lot of shady operators. For a nice personal laptop Apple machines are expensive but notebooks as a whole charge you a nice premium if you want power and quality, good systems from Sager, Asus, even top end Lenovo's aren't much cheaper than the Apple systems and many of them are weaker in several areas (lower resolution displays, weaker warranty plans.)

Small Form Factor PC: I'm currently considering buying a Mac Mini to use as a home media PC, and I think that's a very good niche for those. Apple TV just isn't what I'd be looking for, and the Mac Mini is more robust and supported than a lot of these fly by night HTPC that I've seen crop up.

Cellular Phones: iPhones are cool
MP3 Players: I still have my original iPod somewhere...

I'm just saying for desktop PCs I don't feel Apple hits the target very well on price or offerings.

Jay Leno was asked once why he doesn't own any Ferraris (he's a renowned car collector--and he actually does have like one Ferrari I think he bought from a private seller.) He said he went into a Ferrari dealership back when he first become really famous, and the dealers essentially tried to push all kinds of stuff on him and jack up the price (assuming he was rich and had no sense.) So as Leno told it to the fan asking him about why he doesn't own any Ferraris, he said "just because I'm wealthy doesn't mean I should have to overpay for a car."

Fundamentally I don't care if we're talking about a $1400 difference, a $200 difference, or a $100,000 difference, if the premium over what I feel is the appropriate price is some 100% I just have a hard time justifying it. I've never bought a $10 beer.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Additionally the "Nehalem" processor in the cheapest Mac Pro (the one I configured above) is, I believe, actually an Intel Xeon W3530 "Bloomfield" and retails for around $314.

This Wiki page has more detail: Nehalem microarchitecture just because it says Nehalem does not mean it is a server grade CPU, and the Bloomfield W3530 is, to my knowledge, a desktop CPU.

I believe the server model CPUs start with the letter E, and don't come into play unless you select the "server" model Mac Pro on the far right of the selection screen.

A Xeon is a Xeon, as far as the core chip functionality goes.

Intel's Xeon nomenclature goes something like this:
W - workstation (that is, single socket board)
E - low-power, multi-socket
X - high-power, multi-socket

Multi-socket chips cost more because they include additional components to enable the inter-socket communications.