In NY, many school janitors paid more than teachers

[Pat]

Yes, clearly that's the same thing as having safety standards in the airline industry.

[Slargos]

Yes, clearly that's the same thing as having safety standards in the airline industry.

What makes you think there are no safety standards?

[Pat]

That's not what I said.

[garbon]

That's what he said.

[grumbler]

Oooh!  A "Strawman versus Red Herring" contest!  This thread delivers!

[garbon]

I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians.  Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have.  If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.

I still don't buy it. Are you suggesting that the "clean knowledge workers" couldn't have learned maintenance duties quicker (and more cheaply) than the time/resources they spent on their educations?

[Slargos]

I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians.  Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have.  If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.

I still don't buy it. Are you suggesting that the "clean knowledge workers" couldn't have learned maintenance duties quicker (and more cheaply) than the time/resources they spent on their educations?

He's suggesting exactly what he's saying, that it's not as simple as comparing a university educated educator, and a guy with a mop.

If we were paying the guy with the mop 50% more, it would certainly seem weird. It would still be perfectly reasonable given the very simple laws of supply and demand, but it would be intuitively harder to grasp.

[Ideologue]

I'm also echoing the notion that "cleaning" is probably not the most challenging responsibility of custodians.  Yeah, you can hire anyone to do that; you cannot hire just anyone to fix all the routine problems a large building is likely to have.  If really all they're doing is taking out trash, then NYC (or the specific authorities here) could probably cut some expenses, but I don't think that's all there is to it.

I still don't buy it. Are you suggesting that the "clean knowledge workers" couldn't have learned maintenance duties quicker (and more cheaply) than the time/resources they spent on their educations?

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.

I'm suggesting that:

1)the "outrage" in these NYC school districts has a snobbish--and irrational--bent to it;
2)either individuals, or their unions, have managed to negotiate a favorable deal with their employer, and it's of little consequence what other types of employees are paid; and
3)even if it were, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as "I have a degree, hence I should be paid more," given the overlooked technical aspects of the custodian's duties.

I suppose that my point is that "Should teachers be paid more?" and "Should teachers be paid more than custodial engineers?" are completely separate questions, whose answers have very little to do with one another.

[grumbler]

I am not sure all of those numbers are accurate (this http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/downloads/pdf/noes/custodianeng_boe.pdf 2004 job advertising sets the starting salary of custodians at $41,500 per year, and I doubt it has almost doubled since then), but I also don't think that one can argue, as Ide does, that we should ignore comparisons of two people working for the same employer in the same building because of some weird assumption that "it's of little consequence what other types of employees are paid" given the fixed budget of the employer.

Drawing conclusions from a story that uses unstated number from "at least one Bronx school" as "stat"s is probably foolish, though.  The story is for shit, since it doesn't mention hours worked, or responsibilities, for any of its numbers.  The fact that it includes "expert testimony" from a 10th-grader doesn't make it more credible.

Conclusion:  bad writing on a slow news day.  Add the Languish Usual Suspects and we have a storm in a tea cup.

[jimmy olsen]

I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article.  "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!"  But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make.  Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.

My school has a couple of mechanics/gophers, but they don't clean. The students clean the classrooms and cleaning lady is hired to clean the bathrooms.

[garbon]

1)the "outrage" in these NYC school districts has a snobbish--and irrational--bent to it;

Yeah I think you are just perceiving that bent. I perceive that people were upset that the focus of the schools - the educators - weren't paid as much a supporting staff - the janitors.

2)either individuals, or their unions, have managed to negotiate a favorable deal with their employer, and it's of little consequence what other types of employees are paid;

People shouldn't be upset that politics makes it so that the key staff members get paid less that the support staff? Seems like a legitimate reason to me.

3)even if it were, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as "I have a degree, hence I should be paid more," given the overlooked technical aspects of the custodian's duties.

Except that's what my post was addressing...I think you are overstating and over-lauding(?) the technical aspects of the custodian's duties. I think many of those teachers could have been adequate custodians had they directed their efforts in that direction, but I'm not entirely sure it flows in the opposite direction (custodians=>teachers).

I suppose that my point is that "Should teachers be paid more?" and "Should teachers be paid more than custodial engineers?" are completely separate questions, whose answers have very little to do with one another.

Of course, but that doesn't make the comparison less frightful. Besides as grumbler did point out, the employers do have fixed budget. More to the custodians does mean less available funds for teaching staff.

[garbon]

I really dislike the unpleasant, classist tone of the detractors in the article.  "Of course a white collar worker should make more than a lowly janitor!"  But as mentioned upthread, the lowly janitor is required to do more work, and very likely, more varied work, without which the entire building would become uninhabitable, a claim that no single teacher can make.  Shockingly, they are paid slightly more.

My school has a couple of mechanics/gophers, but they don't clean. The students clean the classrooms and cleaning lady is hired to clean the bathrooms.

I'm not sure the Korean context can spread much light on the situation in New York.

[Capetan Mihali]

My school has a couple of mechanics/gophers, but they don't clean. The students clean the classrooms and cleaning lady is hired to clean the bathrooms.

I'm not sure the Korean context can spread much light on the situation in New York.

Tim Ortiz for Chancellor!  "He knows Korean gophers!"

[Tonitrus]

Has anyone made a lame "they should be paid equally for having to deal with trash" wisecrack in this thread yet?

[MadImmortalMan]

Has anyone made a lame "they should be paid equally for having to deal with trash" wisecrack in this thread yet?

No, but I'll toss in a "My high school teachers didn't do jack for me, but at least the janitor kept the fucking paper towels in the bathroom filled".




I had two good teachers. Ever. Out of, what 50? That means that there's 96% bad teachers? For every one of grumbler or my mom, there are 24 pieces of shit. Fuck them. Give the janitors a raise.