Historical query: Grand Fleet, outbreak of WW1

[grumbler]

How did other navies handle this? I know the japs lost at least one battleship in WW2 to magazine explosion, but I don't know the reasons behind. How good flash-protection did the austrians, french and italians have? Were their ships sound in construction?

Dunno about the Austrians, but the Italians had largely the same philosophy as the British.  I don't recall the French position, but if I had to guess, I'd guess they erred on the side of caution.  The Russians, as I recall, had the best flash protection systems prewar, followed but he Japanese.  Both had seen the necessity after the Russo-Japanese War.  Since the Germans built the prewar Russian ships and Britain the prewar Japanese, one would think their designers would have looked at the issue again because of their customers' requirements, but that appears to have not been the case in the British case, at least.

No one but the Brits stowed powder above shells.

[Siege]

Whoa, finally an intreesting thread in Languish.

[Threviel]

Can anyone recommend a good naval forum by the way? Navweaps is boring and Hennemans battlecruiser forum seems dead for good.

[Threviel]

And what would you have done to win the war if you commanded the HSF? Is it winnable from a german perspective?

[Tamas]

And what would you have done to win the war if you commanded the HSF? Is it winnable from a german perspective?

IIRC, the Germans basically tried (or rather, hoped) to catch the British fleet with its pants down, to cut it to size piecemal, right? I think this was the most sensible, and only viable strategy, especially since they did not plan for a long war.

[grumbler]

Can anyone recommend a good naval forum by the way? Navweaps is boring and Hennemans battlecruiser forum seems dead for good.

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/forums/63/Battleship-Vs-Battleship Warships has always been the gold standard, as far as I am concerned.

[grumbler]

And what would you have done to win the war if you commanded the HSF? Is it winnable from a german perspective?

It was possibly winnable in the first few months, when the force ratios were not too detrimental.  Unfortunately for the Germans, Jellicoe was too smart to fall into a trap at that point, and the HSF lacked the scouting capability to position their ships to win a battle with the Grand Fleet.  Maybe a Jutland-style lure with the battlecruisers would have worked, since Beattie was more aggressive and Jellicoe would have felt honor-bound to support Beattie with the heavy metal, but the Germans would have been operating blind and this would have been more likely a German disaster than a British one.  In hindsight, this would still have been a gamble worth taking, but as HSf commander in 1914 I wouldn't have hindsight.  I would be far more aware of my limitations than my opportunities.

[grumbler]

Can anyone recommend a good naval forum by the way? Navweaps is boring and Hennemans battlecruiser forum seems dead for good.

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/forums/63/Battleship-Vs-Battleship Warships has always been the gold standard, as far as I am concerned.

And, BTW, the stuff on the loss of the Kirishima is golden.  It demonstrates rather convincingly that, contrary to Japanese claims, Kirishima wasn't scuttled, but was hammered to the bottom. Washington hit her with 20 16" shells in five minutes (for a hit rate of something like 36%), and that was that.  Good shoot, Wash.

[CountDeMoney]

[Richard Hakluyt]

It seems strange in some ways that the Germans didn't give it a go, their fleet didn't do them much good bottled up in port. But, OTOH, think of the shame of being the Admiral that lost the fleet on a bad odds gamble 

[grumbler]

It seems strange in some ways that the Germans didn't give it a go, their fleet didn't do them much good bottled up in port. But, OTOH, think of the shame of being the Admiral that lost the fleet on a bad odds gamble 

The Germans were quite aware of the issues that made their early Dreadnoughts mediocre designs at best.  They had no idea of the problems that made British designs even less effective.  The German strategy of a "fleet in being" made their navy more valuable, in their eyes, as a token in the foreseen 1915 version of the Vienna Conference than as an actual force to win the war.  Remember that no one was in the habit of thinking the RN was actually defeatable.  The HSF was not seen as an actual military asset so much as a political one.  I don't even think the German had a plan to win a war at sea.  Thus, they started WW1 with even fewer submarines (and less effective ones) than the British, and a mindset that the Army would win the war while the Navy just made trouble for the British and served as a token.

Where the German applied effort, they were very successful at the start of the war; the Navy was not the area where they applied much effort, except in commerce-raiding 9where they enjoyed a lot of success).  Hindsight is marvelous, but not much use to those lacking it.

[Siege]

[Neil]

It seems strange in some ways that the Germans didn't give it a go, their fleet didn't do them much good bottled up in port. But, OTOH, think of the shame of being the Admiral that lost the fleet on a bad odds gamble 

The Germans were quite aware of the issues that made their early Dreadnoughts mediocre designs at best.  They had no idea of the problems that made British designs even less effective.  The German strategy of a "fleet in being" made their navy more valuable, in their eyes, as a token in the foreseen 1915 version of the Vienna Conference than as an actual force to win the war.  Remember that no one was in the habit of thinking the RN was actually defeatable.  The HSF was not seen as an actual military asset so much as a political one.  I don't even think the German had a plan to win a war at sea.  Thus, they started WW1 with even fewer submarines (and less effective ones) than the British, and a mindset that the Army would win the war while the Navy just made trouble for the British and served as a token.

Where the German applied effort, they were very successful at the start of the war; the Navy was not the area where they applied much effort, except in commerce-raiding 9where they enjoyed a lot of success).  Hindsight is marvelous, but not much use to those lacking it.

And there was always the fact that until early 1915, it was 'a few more months before we get our new, more powerful ships', as the later Konigs were just becoming operational through the first fall and winter of the war.  Then again, for Grosser Kurfust, Markgraf and Kronprinz, the British added Marlborough, Benbow and Emperor of India, not to mentioning acquiring (by hook or by crook) Agincourt, Canada and Erin.

You have to wonder what the results would have been of forcing 'Der Tag' by rushing the channel in August 1914 would have been.

[Threviel]

My great grandfather served on Grosser Kürfürst by the way, so I am very happy that the germans didn't try anything serious early in the war.

[dps]

Beyond anything else, the German naval commanders didn't think that there was any reason to do anything risky in 1914.  The Germans had planned for a quick war--"home before the leaves fall" and all that".