Was there an historic King Arthur

[Valmy]

The Arthur we know about has nothing to do with actual history, but with how we imagine our history and thus ourselves.

Well yeah that goes without saying.  The question is this a distant folk hero whose story grows over time like George Washington striding across the country chopping down cherry trees with one hand and chopping off Redcoat heads with the other or just a Hercules type myth?

Next somebody is going to tell me of the ancient Minoans had a King named Hercules or something.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Some years ago I read a rather entertaining novel called Men went to Cattraeth. The novel was based on a Welsh poem, Y Goddodin, which was attributed to a Welsh bard Aneirin who flourished in the 7th century. Anyway, the point is that, like Gildas, here w have an early if dubious reference to Arthur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Gododdin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneirin

Cattraeth = Catterick btw, which is in what is now North Yorkshire. Goddodin was a Welsh "kingdom" in Northern England and Southern Scotland.

The Welsh/Britons all died at Cattraeth, being grossly outnumbered by the Angles of Bernicia and Deira. Perhaps this was the model for later tales of Arthur's final battle against Mordred?

[Brazen]

Didn't they recently find an engraving with the Cornish version of Arthur at Tintagel?

[Martim Silva]

What I understood is that archaeological findings showed Saxon graves in central England until around 520 or so, then those stop and are only found in the Eastern side of the country until the 570s, and then the other Saxon graves in Central England date from the 570s and onward.

The usually assumption is that something stopped Saxon expansion into Britannia in the 520s, and it took them about 50 years to recover and resume their push.

This is normally associated with a strong military defeat. I suppose the Romano-British leader who possibly led the locals against the invaders at the time *would* classify as the person we think of today as "Arthur", but that's about it. We don't even know his name, nor his title.

But, in a way, I think the legend has a bit of truth - the [very altered] story of the war leader who stopped the Saxons and was a hope for the locals during a couple of generations.

[Viking]

I think the fact that invaders from across the north sea (Saxons and later Danes) both invade and overrun the same part of England and then stop, make a deal and then one generation later (I refer to the pause between the agreement on the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Knut) conquest is resumed. I'd rather suggest that it has something to do with how far the seafaring boats from Frisia and Jutland could get up the rivers of England (Thames, Humber, Ouse, Tyne etc. etc.) rather than the ambitions or achievements of a historical parallel to Alfred the Great in the 6th century.

[Zeus]

I'm surprised, honestly. Three pages in an no one has mentioned the "...an historic King Arthur"

[grumbler]

I'm surprised, honestly. Three pages in an no one has mentioned the "...an historic King Arthur"

Only one page so far, and no one much cares that Brits use "an" before words starting in h.

[crazy canuck]

There was a tv program about myths and legends with Michael Wood. Found some Roman-era grave on some Scottish farm.

http://www.pbs.org/mythsandheroes/video_arthur.html

More evidence than there is for there being a historical David.

Indeed, and Jesus appears in Egyptian writings 18,000 years ago.

Btw, I still cant find the reference.  I think your secondary source was inaccurate.

[grumbler]

Indeed, and Jesus appears in Egyptian writings 18,000 years ago.

Btw, I still cant find the reference.  I think your secondary source was inaccurate.

You didn't fall for that "Egyptian writings that are three times as old as Egyptian civilization" gag of Raz's, did you?

[The Brain]

Define "King Arthur". How much of what is known about the legendary/mythical king must be met by the historical person for him to qualify? FWIW I think that it can be fairly misleading to call a person who inspired a legend the legend, if you understand what I mean.

[crazy canuck]

Indeed, and Jesus appears in Egyptian writings 18,000 years ago.

Btw, I still cant find the reference.  I think your secondary source was inaccurate.

You didn't fall for that "Egyptian writings that are three times as old as Egyptian civilization" gag of Raz's, did you?

Raz continually asserts that it is something I believe.  It is a little game he likes to play.

[The Minsky Moment]

There may have very well been a warlord or warrior named Arthur (or some variation of it)

Could also be a variant on a title or position, as opposed to a proper name.

[viper37]

Did he have a real world counterpart or is he entirely fictional? 

probably.

[viper37]

Ask grumbler, he served under Arthur at some po
int in his military career.

No, you're mistaken.  Arthur did not have a navy.

[viper37]

I think the fact that invaders from across the north sea (Saxons and later Danes) both invade and overrun the same part of England and then stop, make a deal and then one generation later (I refer to the pause between the agreement on the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Knut) conquest is resumed. I'd rather suggest that it has something to do with how far the seafaring boats from Frisia and Jutland could get up the rivers of England (Thames, Humber, Ouse, Tyne etc. etc.) rather than the ambitions or achievements of a historical parallel to Alfred the Great in the 6th century.

and it took them 50 years to resume their march inside the country?

hmm.  It depends on how we see them, were they invaders&conquerers or simply migrants?  Migrants, move to one place, mix the locals, and slowly expand into new territories. If we look at 19th century US history, can we cut a clear mark on where US settlers stopped for a generation then resume moving?  I don't think so (except for the Secession war).  If in Britain the advance of the Saxons was completely stopped for a period of 50 years, I think it's reasonable to think that there was something that stopped them in their tracks.

Maybe it was King Arthur and Merlin .  Maybe it was an epidemic of some sort.  Maybe they simply had enough lands for everyone in this time period.  But I just don't think the inapropriate boat type was the reason, not for 50 years.