Game of Thrones begins....

[Habbaku]

I don't at all disagree that Stannis' arc could be headed that way, but I don't think he'd be the one to instigate it given his current circumstances in the books.  He is in a tough situation in the books, but I actually thing he's positioned to win the fight coming up (I have a variety of reasons for that).  In the show, at least, they made the situation desperate enough that he would consider that.  But in the books? 

[crazy canuck]

It is interesting how they chose to do that - not just killing Shereen, but doing so in a extremely public manner.

I sure as hell would never follow the man afterwards, no matter how loyal I was to start.

One thing neither the book nor the series are terribly interested in is the POV of the rank and file.

That is true - Martin never really seems to consider things like moral, for the most part, which of course in that period would be pretty critical.

I disagree, large parts of the book dealt with the Imp rallying the populace and troops defending Kings Landing.

Which is why the scene doesn't work for me.  In the books, at least, we have a contingent (maybe 1/4th of Stannis' troops) that are die-hard R'hllor followers.  Presumably, those still exist in the series.  But the other 3/4th?  They're there due to feudal obligations, or because they believe Stannis is their king, or because they're Northerners that have signed on to help.  That entire group would desert en masse at such an instance of kinslaying.

I agree.  I wondered why most of the army didnt just start walking away.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, certainly no nothern troops would stand for that.

I mean, they didn't just kill her, right? They burned her alive.

However, I do not agree with you that this is necessarily a break from the books (even the theoretical books) - I think the entire Stannis story arc is pointing very firmly at Stannis, at some point, having to decide just how much the ends justify any means. He was either going to have a "Come to Jesus" moment where he rejects Melisandre/LoL, or a moment where he completely falls to evil.

Most of his support in the books is because his followers believe that although he is harsh he is also just.    The argument that he needed to sacrifice his daughter is self serving.  It is also a damning admission.  He is the one true king sure.  But he cant enforce his claim without sacrificing his only child to a blood thirsty God?

Also, the reaction of his wife who is (or at least was) a devout follower is very interesting.  I wonder if it will foreshadow what Stannis' army does.

[crazy canuck]

Also, I thought the Dragon was a bit wimpy.  It could be hurt but 20 or so rebels?  These dragons are supposed to be able to defeat whole armies.

[Habbaku]

Also, I thought the Dragon was a bit wimpy.  It could be hurt but 20 or so rebels?  These dragons are supposed to be able to defeat whole armies.

The dragons are nowhere near fully-grown yet.



Mind, Balerion is the largest that's ever been, but Drogon is still nowhere near his size yet.

[Solmyr]

Should Smaug be that small? I remember him being enormous, at least five times the size of Drogon in ep. 9.

[crazy canuck]

The dragons are nowhere near fully-grown yet.

Ah, ok.  I thought they were near maturity now.

[Berkut]

Well, we actually don't really know how big these dragons will be though. The "grown size" decreased drastically over the years. But Daenyr's dragons are already larger than the grown size of the "runt" dragons that were around towards the end of time of dragons...

Is this a "reset" of the dragon sizing, such that we can expect Drogon to potentially reach Belarion size?

[crazy canuck]

Good point Berkut.  I can't remember the explanation in the books for why dragon size decreased and why they eventually died off but my recollection is that these dragons are not effected by whatever that was.

[Habbaku]

I don't think there ever was an explanation, or at least I don't recall it.  It almost certainly has to do with the cyclical seasons(/climate change) and the waning/waxing of magic power.  The dragons appeared in tune with the Red Comet, so it seems to me that they grow in line with the increase in magic in the world.  Since magic is currently increasing (in Westeros, at least), I think it reasonable to conclude that the dragons will keep growing, potentially to an immense size depending on just how much magic comes about.

[HVC]

I thought it was because of inbreeding after most of the dragons died during the dance of the dragons.

And wasn't Belarion an unusually large dragon?

[Habbaku]

I thought it was because of inbreeding after most of the dragons died during the dance of the dragons.

I can't find that in any sources, but I could be wrong.  Most of them did, in fact, die during the Dance of Dragons, but dragon mating isn't exactly covered in detail in the books.  Indeed, the only thing that I seem to recall about them breeding is that they can change their gender at will--seemingly on a need-to-do-so-basis.  But I don't recall anything about inbreeding being the cause of their temporary extinction, which leads me to conclude that their rise and fall is attached to magic.

And wasn't Belarion an unusually large dragon?

Being the largest ever recorded is certainly unusually large. 

[Kleves]

That entire group would desert en masse at such an instance of kinslaying.

I don't know that I expect massive desertions (aside from Davos, the poor bastard). In the show, I don't know if they ever presented Stannis as having any northern contigent to speak of. The non-nothern contigents may not have anywhere else to go in the middle of winter.

[Zanza]

Being the largest ever recorded is certainly unusually large. 

Not necessarily. Being the largest in a very homogeneous sample could mean that his size is still usual. 

[Admiral Yi]

I don't know that I expect massive desertions (aside from Davos, the poor bastard). In the show, I don't know if they ever presented Stannis as having any northern contigent to speak of. The non-nothern contigents may not have anywhere else to go in the middle of winter.

Pretty sure I heard some dialogue in one of the snowed in camp scenes that could only have come from the northern hill tribe guys.