Game of Thrones begins....

[viper37]

guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...

[grumbler]

guys are worried about spoilers for non book readers but basically confirm everyone but Stannis and Daenarys are left alive...

Not sure what your argument is, here.  Renly and Viserys, the other pretenders, died in the show so far.  Since neither Dany nor Stannis has no sibs (that we know of), that leaves those two as the remaining pretenders to the throne.

Surely we don't have to worry, in a discussion about the show, that there may be some people reading who haven't seen the show?

[Martinus]

Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance. 

A self-proclaimed lawyer arguing that inheritance laws are merely "serious sophistry?"  Say it ain't so!

If Joffrey and his sibs are not Robert's heirs, then Stannis is.

If you wanted to engage in serious sophistry, you could argue that Stannis had voided his claims by using sorcery to kill his brother, I suppose.  But that would be contrary to anything we know about the law of the land.  If Stannis is the rightful king, then Renly was in open rebellion against his rightful king, and Stannis was no more wrong for using sorcery to kill him than Aegon was for using sorcery (dragons) to kill Haren the Black.

Gee, an ad hom in a discussion of fictional "law". Go fuck yourself and die already, you senile idiot.

[Martinus]

Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance.

He is Renly's older brother, so unless the strength of their claims is zero, his is greater.

Don't Baratheons trace their claim from the fact that Orys Baratheon was a bastard son of a Targaryen? If so, then Robert has bastards that have a stronger claim than Stannis.

Plus as others point out, Danaerys is the true Queen. Everyone else is an usurper with a more or less vaunted claim. Stannis's claim is only good within a very specific set of assumptions - which makes him just as bad as that of anyone else except Danaerys's, imo.

[Habbaku]

Martinus, why do you believe Stannis's claim to the throne is no stronger than the other's?  If we assume that the Baratheons are the rightful kings, Stannis has the strongest claim of anyone, including Renly.  If the Baratheons are not the rightful kings, then his claim is decidedly weaker than any other's.

[Martinus]

His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders

Well he is the only remaining pretender to the Iron Throne so I guess that is true.

How so? Unless you consider Joffrey not to be a pretender as he is the ruling King. But even then, there is also Danaerys.

[Habbaku]

Don't Baratheons trace their claim from the fact that Orys Baratheon was a bastard son of a Targaryen? If so, then Robert has bastards that have a stronger claim than Stannis.

  This is a truly bizarre statement.  The Baratheons get their claim because they are descended from a Targaryen bastard (not true, necessarily, but I'll play along), so Robert's bastards have a stronger claim than Robert's true-born brother?

[Martinus]

Martinus, why do you believe Stannis's claim to the throne is no stronger than the other's?  If we assume that the Baratheons are the rightful kings, Stannis has the strongest claim of anyone, including Renly.  If the Baratheons are not the rightful kings, then his claim is decidedly weaker than any other's.

I don't see it, really - the Stannis's claim (ahead of Joffrey) is really based in the "ominscient reader" approach, which imo does not hold water in the reality of Westeros.

There are no DNA tests and since the dead King has never challenged his paternity of Joffrey and, presumably, Robert was actually fucking Cersei at the time Jaime was also fucking her, there is to me no legal way to challenge Joffrey's ancestry.

Sure, if Stannis wins his rebellion and usurps the throne, he "gets to" rewrite history, thus depriving Joffrey of his claim, but until then I can't see how Stannis's claim is stronger than anyone else's.

[crazy canuck]

Stannis is a dishonorable murderer and a kinslayer. His claim to the throne is also not stronger than that of other pretenders, really, unless you are happy to engage in some serious sophistry. I hope he gets his come-uppance. 

A self-proclaimed lawyer arguing that inheritance laws are merely "serious sophistry?"  Say it ain't so!

If Joffrey and his sibs are not Robert's heirs, then Stannis is.

If you wanted to engage in serious sophistry, you could argue that Stannis had voided his claims by using sorcery to kill his brother, I suppose.  But that would be contrary to anything we know about the law of the land.  If Stannis is the rightful king, then Renly was in open rebellion against his rightful king, and Stannis was no more wrong for using sorcery to kill him than Aegon was for using sorcery (dragons) to kill Haren the Black.

Gee, an ad hom in a discussion of fictional "law". Go fuck yourself and die already, you senile idiot.

Not really an ad hom.  More of a Languish meme.  You proclaim yourself to be a lawyer but much of what you say denies any legal training.

Here for example, if you had any property or inheritance legal training which gave you even a small amount of knowledge you would have immediately recognized that your denial of Stannis' claim made no sense and you would not have clicked the post button.

Actually, all you really had to do was read the books to understand Stannis has the strongest claim (excluding Dani [spoiler] and perhaps others who resurrect in book 5[/spoiler]) and that is what motivates his self righteous attitude.

At the very least you have reinforced the meme - well done.

There are no DNA tests and since the dead King has never challenged his paternity of Joffrey and, presumably, Robert was actually fucking Cersei at the time Jaime was also fucking her, there is to me no legal way to challenge Joffrey's ancestry

The books themselves set out all the evidence for why Joffrey is not the son of Robert.  Two Hands died because they learned the truth and by the time Robert dies it is an open secret known most importantly by Stannis.

Again, having you talk about "legal" ways to challenge simply reinforces the meme.

[Solmyr]

The Baratheons are also descended from the Targaryens in a trueborn line. Robert's etc paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V. I'm pretty sure that's where they get their claim, as this branch is closest after the primary Targaryens (Dany etc).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Baratheon

[Habbaku]

The Baratheons are also descended from the Targaryens in a trueborn line. Robert's etc paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V. I'm pretty sure that's where they get their claim, as this branch is closest after the primary Targaryens (Dany etc).

[Razgovory]

Great, Marty falls into the pit of identity politics in a fictitious world.

[crazy canuck]

Great, Marty falls into the pit of identity politics in a fictitious world.

He is blinded by cheering for the gay hero.  Even Renly acknowledged Stannis' stronger "legal" claim.  Renly's argument was that Stannis should give way because Renly had the larger army not the stronger claim.

[Viking]

My two big legal questions about Westerosi law are as follows.

1 - If you die and are resurrected are you still bound by your oath to the nights watch?

2 - What is the status of children born under a second marriage of a Targaryen. Are they legitimate?

[Grinning_Colossus]

Stannis has the better claim and his smoke monster just averted a battle that would have cost thousands of lives.