Game of Thrones begins....

[Jaron]

The book notes that the red priests magic didn't actually work until dragons were resurrected. Before that, Melisandre was using powders and such to manipulate fire.

[jimmy olsen]

Yeah, but the Andals brought the Seven to Westeros long ago when there were still Dragons about.

[Jaron]

That's a fair point. I would say the most likely reason is that:

1) The Andals brought the Seven and beat back the local (old) Gods that are now worshipped in the North.
2) In the east, Valyria was probably pimping out its own religion and with all their dragons burning down cities and their armies conquering everything it probably seemed pretty darn accurate.
3) For whatever reason, Valyria chose not to conquer Westeros (though they certainly could have). They never held more than Dragonstone - some popular theories is that they were afraid of the Others (unlikely in my opinion), or that they feared Westerosi skinchangers (more likely, since they could have possibly possessed their dragons and turned their best weapon against them)
4) Once entrenched, the Seven and its associated religion became too powerful to ignore, even if it did lack real power, it had power in the hearts and minds of the people.
5) The maester order frowns on magic. They are incredibly powerful and influential in Westeros as well, and probably played their part to ensure any magical influences stayed low.

Highly speculative on my part, but I think in light of everything else it makes the most sense. I do think GRRM is writing R'holler into a YAHWEH figure and Westeros will end up in a monotheistic fire worshipping culture by the end of the book (c. 2029/unless they do the Futurama head stuff to him - then 3029)

[Josquius]

3) For whatever reason, Valyria chose not to conquer Westeros (though they certainly could have). They never held more than Dragonstone - some popular theories is that they were afraid of the Others (unlikely in my opinion), or that they feared Westerosi skinchangers (more likely, since they could have possibly possessed their dragons and turned their best weapon against them)

Interesting idea and makes sense.
I'd always just assumed it was like Rome not conquering Scotland- too poor and worthless to be worth the bother when there's so much more to do elsewhere.



It certainly seems that the red faith is the true religion.
Unless perhaps we take a christian outlook (what is Georgey boy's faith like?) and have the seven as the true religion with its hands off gods whilst the red faith is nothing more than cheap tricks to sway those whose faith is unsteady.

Though maybe the seven did used to have power. Perhaps like the Bretonnians in Warhammer, knights actually did gain something supernatural from their faith.

Or it could just be tied into the maesters with their whole anti-magic thing. Given how nasty the magical valeria was an anti-magic faith could gain a lot of popularity.

[Viking]

fire magic + divination = true religion?

I'm unimpressed. I am, however, going to imply an alternative explanation. Besides it has been made pretty obvious in the books that Stannis' Lightbringer is not Lightbringer(tm).

The Wall, the Children of the Forest, The Walls of Storms End, The Old Gods and The Others are connected in magic. These things are all peculiar to Westeros and are juxtaposed to The Smoking Sea, Fire Divination, R'Hyllor and Dragons.

It's really hard to guess since Martin has planted the hints in a much more elegant manner than he did for Jon Snows parentage. What I can assert is that there is one explanation for The Wall (Ice), Dragons (Fire) and destruction of the land bridge between essos and westeros (which ended at the end of the age of heros).

[Viking]

Another issue of confusion for me has been the behaviour of Balon Greyjoy. If his stated goal is to win back the seastone chair his choice of enemy (Robb Stark) is mindbogglingly stupid. It is almost as if his only purpose in the books is to participate in setting Robb up for the  [spoiler]Red Wedding[/spoiler]. Taking the North will not win him the Seastone Chair, Taking Casterly Rock might.

But, then a phrase form Theon (not in the books) about how he did not volunteer to go but was sent and now that he loyally returned he is kicked for having been gone made me look at it differently.

Ned Stark payed the Iron Price for the waters around Pyke, for the land around Pyke, for the walls of Pyke for the lives of Theons two brothers and then most outrageously Ned Stark payed the Iron Price for the honour and virtue of Balon Greyjoy by having him beg for his life and offer up his only remaining son and his throne to purchase it. Balon Greyjoy then fumes for a decade about having been so dishonoured and dreams of revenging himself on those who deprived him of his honour and virtue only to have Robb Stark casually give him his son and his crown as if they meant nothing to Robb. Balon was given back his son and throne and in that act he was denied the opportunity to redeem himself by paying the iron price for the two.

[Josquius]

I really recognise the girl who plays that prostitute....probally from something more wholesome....I wonder what.

[jimmy olsen]

Yeah, it was always about the Iron Price and revenge for Balon. Obviously teaming up with House Stark is smarter. If the North loses than whoever wins in the south whether Baratheon or Lannister will crush the Greyjoys eventually. If Balon helps Rob win though, the land might fracture into several kingdoms. The North (including the Riverlands), The Vale, Dorne, The Iron Islands and the Westerlands, with the Baratheons ruling a remnant that may or may not including The Reach depending on which brother survived.

[Josquius]

Siding with the Starks certainly makes sence for independence and there is a lot of revenge vs the Starks stuff going on in Balon's mind but there's another factor at work too: land.
The smallness and barreness of the Iron Islands is mentioned a lot in the books. I can recall several occasions where Iron Men bemoan the fact that second sons don't have land on which to build a hall.
If the Iron Men side with the Starks and attack the Lannisters....then they and the Starks can gain their independence but it just leaves them stuck on the Iron Islands. The Westlands are too civilized and well settled for land to be really taken there. It'd be much harder to hold too, down in the south, in easy marching distance of elsewhere.
The North however....long stretches of barren coastline galore.
I think for Balon, yup, it was about revenge. But also contributing to the thoughts of attacking the north was likely Asha and probally others, they don't much care about gaining actual independence, they just want more land for the Ironmen. It seems a pretty reasonable assumption that the Lannisters would let them keep the west coast of the North.

[Faeelin]

Surely the north doesn't have a high population for a reason, right? It's not like there is plentiful fertile land that they just don't use.

I don't know. The winters are so stupid, and play such a minimal role in the economy, that it's pointless to worry about them.

[Josquius]

Yeah, its largely empty for a reason ala Scandinavia- but the Iron Isles are similarly barren and crappy. The Ironmen make their living from the sea, they don't plan on doing much farming. The quality of the land doesn't matter too much.

Also the Stoney Shore was historically always underpopulated due to Ironmen pirating.

Its also a bit remote from the rest of the north, let alone the rest of the realm. Its just down the road for the seaborne Ironmen though.

[Josephus]

was the scene with Joffrey and the prostitutes in the book? I don't recall it.

[Josquius]

Nor I.
In the book I remember Tyrion bought Joffrey some book for his name day and suggested he read it- he chopped it up with a sword he'd got from someone else. Or maybe that was the coronation. I can't recall.

Really wonder who the prozzie is....Initial research suggests: I am wrong, she was in porn. But I'm sure  isn't in order....must look like someone else....

[jimmy olsen]

The Westlands are too civilized and well settled for land to be really taken there.

Crush the Lannisters and with Tywin and Kevan dead the lesser Lords of the Westerlands will bend the knee.

[Martinus]

What the fuck happened to "let's give everyone 24 hours so they can watch the episode, before commenting"? It's airing on Monday nights here.

I mean, I don't really care about spoilers, but I was banned by the fat fuck for doing exactly that.