Game of Thrones begins....

[Martinus]

Gendry looked a bit older than I imagined him.

I remembered him from the books as a young adult.

[Slargos]

Catelyn actually seemed kind of badass in that last scene.   

Concur. I thought it was a great scene.

I can't stop rewatching it. What is the allure of feudal loyalty? 

It's a lost virtue.

Of course, it was never a virtue to begin with given that it was just another tool for the oppression of men, and today the masses are controlled with other types of opiates, but nevertheless..

It's an attractive type of servitude because it builds on pathos and a strict sense of honour and dignity. We all want to believe there is purpose, and we all want to believe ourselves part of it, and so we cling to whatever meaningless cause we can in order to feel important. The truth is, they live in dirt hovels so that Catelyn can feast on roast boar every night and that so called code of honour is just a way to keep them from realizing the truth of it.

Edit: But yes, I thought it was kick ass for exactly the same reason as you did. 

While this is a very modern analysis, I think it misses the key feature of it, i.e. this being based on personal ties. This is a small word. Notice that all arguments used by Catelyn to inspire their loyalties are deeply personal: "I remember you from childhood", "We went to your wedding", etc. Even in today's world, which is deeply atomized, people still recall being charmed when they e.g. meet Obama or Bush or Carter in person, and their opinion of the said leader can improve a lot as a result of such meeting.  This is a much different type of loyalty when your leader is just speaking to you from a tv.

No doubt that a cult of personality is part of it. But it's largely founded on expectations. She's not calling for their loyalty to her, but rather to her grand father and their family name. They are expected to express loyalty to their liege lords the same way we are expected to greet eachother when we meet every day despite the fact that we already greeted eachother when we met yesterday. It's just how things are done, and even considering it (let alone questioning it) is simply beyond the realm of the reasonable. They don't necessarily actively feel a sense of loyalty to her, but to their duty as such, and their duty is to their liege lord who in turn have a duty to her. Under this system of duty they are obliged to aid her, even if of course her inspiring and rousing words play an important part in reminding them of this.

Now, this may be a deliberate construct in order to instill loyalty in subjects, or it may be a legacy ritual of tribal and hunter-gatherer societies with a beneficial (to the ruling elite) byeffect, but the end result is the same: Social control. That it's more attractive than the monetary purchase of loyalty doesn't change the underlying foundation of it, nor how ghastly ugly it is if you just peel off the thin veneer of charisma and wonder.

[Martinus]

Yeah I guess I see your point. I suppose it's a sort of post-tribal/neo-tribal mentality - if we broke these rules, the sky would fall. Siegy thinks in a similar way.

Incidentally, I never thought about SOIAF this way, but based on what we discuss here, one more "Ice vs. Fire" aspect in the story is feudalism vs. "modern" society. Largely, Starks represent the feudal mindset and Lannisters represent the modern mindset (each with its own virtues and failings). Lannisters can often outsmart Starks, but Starks do get an upper hand when they manage to get the game going on feudal rules.

The King's Landing is a "modern" game board. Everything North of Riverrun is a "feudal" game board. In their feudal game board Starks only lose when they break their own rules and act in a "modern" manner (Robb dumping the Frey girl and marrying a girl he loves).

[Slargos]

Concur, and I like the game board analogy. I've always thought of life in general and games and narratives in particular as puzzles in need of solutions. Render any competitive situation to its most fundamental pieces, and you will find that it is simply a case of putting the pieces in the right places and the solution finds itself. The difficulty is in understanding how the pieces fit together (and of course adapting to quickly evolving and changing rules).

[Martinus]

Concur, and I like the game board analogy. I've always thought of life in general and games and narratives in particular as puzzles in need of solutions. Render any competitive situation to its most fundamental pieces, and you will find that it is simply a case of putting the pieces in the right places and the solution finds itself. The difficulty is in understanding how the pieces fit together.

How very sociopathic of you.

[Slargos]

Concur, and I like the game board analogy. I've always thought of life in general and games and narratives in particular as puzzles in need of solutions. Render any competitive situation to its most fundamental pieces, and you will find that it is simply a case of putting the pieces in the right places and the solution finds itself. The difficulty is in understanding how the pieces fit together.

How very sociopathic of you.

An understandable objection. 

[jimmy olsen]

Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him. 

[Slargos]

Both of you make very good points, but I am a bit surprised at Slargos analysis, a bit too modern for him. 

We've already established that you're not very open-minded. 

Essentially, you have been taught that racism equals stupidity (and close-mindedness), and so you assume too much.

[Solmyr]

One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

[Grey Fox]

One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

Is he in the first book or not?

[LaCroix]

The King's Landing is a "modern" game board. Everything North of Riverrun is a "feudal" game board. In their feudal game board Starks only lose when they break their own rules and act in a "modern" manner (Robb dumping the Frey girl and marrying a girl he loves).

the boltons flayed the rulebook then, huh?

[jimmy olsen]

One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

They really weren't that important yet were they?

[Solmyr]

One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

Is he in the first book or not?

Not personally, but he's mentioned in connection to many things (for example, his lengthy absence from the Small Council is noted, he is said to have visited Gendry with Jon Arryn, and Ned considers him the rightful heir after he finds out about Cersei's kids).

[Josquius]

Yeah I guess I see your point. I suppose it's a sort of post-tribal/neo-tribal mentality - if we broke these rules, the sky would fall. Siegy thinks in a similar way.

Incidentally, I never thought about SOIAF this way, but based on what we discuss here, one more "Ice vs. Fire" aspect in the story is feudalism vs. "modern" society. Largely, Starks represent the feudal mindset and Lannisters represent the modern mindset (each with its own virtues and failings). Lannisters can often outsmart Starks, but Starks do get an upper hand when they manage to get the game going on feudal rules.

The King's Landing is a "modern" game board. Everything North of Riverrun is a "feudal" game board. In their feudal game board Starks only lose when they break their own rules and act in a "modern" manner (Robb dumping the Frey girl and marrying a girl he loves).

Not so sure about marrying a girl he loves, rather the slag he pops his cherry with and feels so guilty about it he marries her anyway.

[Habbaku]

One thing I'm missing in the show so far is Robert's brothers. Renly is barely on-screen, and Stannis hasn't even been mentioned at all yet. Granted, Stannis doesn't make an appearance in the first book, but his involvement is still important to the plot.

They really weren't that important yet were they?

Renly was very important in the first book.