[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Drakken]

Viper, I suspect you are in favor of this special law.

From a right-wing guy to another, please answer this question: What apprehended insurrection or imminent public threat currently exists that justifies, right now, transforming Quebec into a police monitoring state for more than a year?

[viper37]

And they can also veto any manifestation if they suspect that it will lead to vandalism, which is basically any manifestation in which students are involved. They would only need to say they will consider it illegal before it even begins.

That I can agree with.  They did ask for it by the behaviour.

And given the official comments of the Barreau, I'm not even sure the law will even be applied in court as written, as it is grossly unconstitutional on several points. This bill has been written on a hankerchief on some civil servant's cornertable.

The law is way too broad, that's a given.  It's too far reaching.
However, I think it must first be applied, then challenged in court.  And of course, they can't challenge the law until the final text is voted on..

It'll take more MPs than that, man. We can expect your pals at the CAQ to vote with the government if any motion of no-confidence with a chance of success is presented.

The CAQ ain't my pals, they are too much to the center for my tastes.

[viper37]

Viper, I suspect you are in favor of this special law.

No, I am not.

From a right-wing guy to another, please answer this question: What apprehended insurrection or imminent public threat currently exists that justifies, right now, transforming Quebec into a police monitoring state for more than a year?

There is nothing that justifies the law as it is written now.  The law does contain some valid points, but overall, it reaches way too far.   Like the "50m from external boundaries of the university".  That means at Laval U, they protestors would have to be in the parking lot of the shopping mall.

[Drakken]

That I can agree with.  They did ask for it by the behaviour.

What behavior, a few smoke grenades, bridges blocked for a few minutes, and a few broken windows? We routinely have these when we manifest in this province, students or not. All we need is the Habs winning a series against Boston to riot.

If it had been Rambo Tremblay and the whole FTQ-construction workers striking out, this crisis would have been solved within a week by negociation. The only reason the shit has hit the fan is because, from the get-go, this government treated the situation like a temper tantrum by a bunch of kids who wanted to play politics. I've rarely seen a government treat a crisis with such paternalistic contempt, derision, and lack of bad faith for the other side of the conflict, just because they are youths and students.

[viper37]

What behavior, a few smoke grenades, bridges blocked for a few minutes, and a few broken windows? We routinely have these when we manifest in this province, students or not. All we need is the Habs winning a series against Boston to riot.

That.  And the bullying of teachers & university personal, the bullying of other students, the threats against the medias and the students who refused to follow, the agression toward the policemen and security guardians.

It's not your windows, it's not your car, so you don't care.  You might feel differently if you were the one personally threatened.

If it had been Rambo Tremblay and the whole CSN-construction workers striking out, this crisis would have been solved within a week and with negociations.

FTQ.  And it ain't solved yet, the FTQ are just waiting for the maraudage to end, to confirm their majority status, and resume pressure.  Intimidation never stopped, the FTQ isn't dissolved, but it hasn't won either.  They will still lose the right to place their people on job sites.

The only reason the shit has hit the fan is because, from the get-go, this government treated the situation like a temper tantrum by a bunch of kids who wanted to play politics. I've rarely seen a government treat a crisis with such contempt, derision, and lack of bad faith for the other side of the conflict.

The students literally destroyed classrooms in Cegep du Vieux Montréal right at the beginning of the strike.  The government did offer the student to negociated accessbility last year, they refused.  As soons as the budget passed, they went on strike and started vandalizing.  They never even tried to stop it, always laying the blame at the victims.  If some judge were to say that a raped woman provoked her agressor by wearing sexy clothes, we'd condemn this judge and ask for his head.  But coming from a leftist leader, it's totally ok to do the same.

Bullying must stop.  End of the line. You can't be serious about intimidation if you let just about any leftist group do what they will.  Criminals must be jailed for the rest of the society to enjoy freedom.  Next time a young girl kills herself, let's blame her loser attitude instead of treating her like a victim.  Exactly like the students now.  Yeah. let's tolerate their bullying. And the union bullying too.  And btw, let's disrespect a tribunal's orders. 

When Accurso is sentenced to jail, I suggest he simply refuse to go and we all cheer him up for his civil disobediance.  You'll applaud for sure.  He's just a poor victim of an unfair system who forced him to cheat, after all.

The moment the students aligned themselves with the union, they were fucked.  They walked right into a trap set by the Liberals.  They thought they were smart, they were dumb.  If these guys were representative of the younger generation, I'd say we're fucked.  They are history students who know nothing about history, and they can't seem to learn the game they're playing.

So, they deserved what is coming. 

That still makes the law unfair and over-reaching, though.

[Grey Fox]

Sois prudent Viper, tu t'approches dangeureusement du clan Amis du Parti Libéral avec des affirmations comme sa.

[Neil]

Do the students deserve anything but contempt?

[Grey Fox]

ADQ lite voted for it. Poor Legault, no PM job for you.

[viper37]

Sois prudent Viper, tu t'approches dangeureusement du clan Amis du Parti Libéral avec des affirmations comme sa.

[viper37]

Do the students deserve anything but contempt?

those on strike?  Probably not.  The majority are ok, though.

[Grallon]

This law is a disgrace and further proof if needed that federalist scum need to be massacred since they either a) wallow in corruption schemes (see current Qc gvt or Sponsorship scandal) or b) work very hard at destroying the foundations of Quebec - we are afflicted with a mafia cabal that does both.

Jean Charest needs to hang from the balcony of the National Assembly!




G.

[Drakken]

That.  And the bullying of teachers & university personal, the bullying of other students, the threats against the medias and the students who refused to follow, the agression toward the policemen and security guardians.

It's not your windows, it's not your car, so you don't care.  You might feel differently if you were the one personally threatened.

Oh come on with the bullying bullshit. Boo-fucking-hoo. No one was knifed or even hit in the face, as far as I know. Besides, intimidation is part of EVERY social conflict. Every conflict is a game to make the other to comply by posturing,, then using covert or even overt force when they don't. It's the name of the game. It is an argument of the meek that intimidation should be drained of any social conflict when its consequences are far-reaching for a numerous segment of the population. Cry me a river.

What do you think the police is doing with its SWAT-attire and its lacrymogenic gaz? Planting flowers? What you sanction is that the only groups who can bully around people they oppose are the police and the government. Bet that these green-square students would love to bully their opponents aside to pass and have their courses, like the scrawny little scabs that they are.

I'm in Montreal. I was forced to search a taxi for an hour because the subway got smoked, and I have had an illegal manifestation two streets away from my home. It's not your city, it's far, far, far away from you in Quebec City, you might feel differently if you were in the middle of it. And yet, I don't consider it violence, at worst a nuisance, like a turd fly flying around my nose. No one has threaten to bomb the National Assembly or gun down the police.

The students literally destroyed classrooms in Cegep du Vieux Montréal right at the beginning of the strike.  The government did offer the student to negociated accessbility last year, they refused.  As soons as the budget passed, they went on strike and started vandalizing.  They never even tried to stop it, always laying the blame at the victims.  If some judge were to say that a raped woman provoked her agressor by wearing sexy clothes, we'd condemn this judge and ask for his head.  But coming from a leftist leader, it's totally ok to do the same.

Totally two different things, and your comparison with rape is not only ludicrous, but twisted. I won't legitimize this logical fallacy with a counter-argument.

The deal that the government presented was not what it was agreed orally during the negociation, and so the deal was signed when one of the parties was in bad faith. The government got caught with its pants down because Line Beauchamp stupidly went to yap in public, immediately after the deal was signed, to announce that the hike was integrally kept AND there was no assurance that the ever increasing student fees fixed by universities and their spendings would be seriously inquired upon and decreased to ease the financial burden of students, when the proposal hadn't be approved by the student bodies yet. This government has now a reputation of being willing to con and hoodwink its way into a political victory, and now they have gone back to a hardline positioning even though the student organizations repeatedly presented offers that could at least be countermanded in negociations. May 68 started in France with much less.

Destroyed classrooms should be treated as defacement of property, not tantamount to terrorism. These are individual criminal acts and they should be prosecuted as such, but no one has brought proof that these were commanded by a higher hierarchy, CLASSE or another. If it were the case the heads of these organization could be prosecuted as incitators to commit criminal acts.

Bullying must stop.  End of the line. You can't be serious about intimidation if you let just about any leftist group do what they will.  Criminals must be jailed for the rest of the society to enjoy freedom.  Next time a young girl kills herself, let's blame her loser attitude instead of treating her like a victim.  Exactly like the students now.  Yeah. let's tolerate their bullying. And the union bullying too.  And btw, let's disrespect a tribunal's orders.

In any conflict, there's intimidation and threats. Threatening to sue is intimidation. Protesting is intimidation. There's no end of the line. Those who commit criminal acts should be prosecuted, but it will always be a means to an end.

Bullying suits you when it's on leftists. Your lenses are tainted. You treat the student strike as if it was an attempted coup d'État by a criminal organization. What you want is the student strikers to shut up, return home, and go play XBOX. Because even a street protest is, in fact, intimidation. It's using numbers to prove a point and that things can degenerate if the government doesn't listen. Well, the government not only doesn't listen and goes la-la-la, but in fact want to strap the child with a leather belt under the guise of "upholding the law". Who's bullying who, here?

When the law isn't applied to make the law be abided and order restored, but to spit in the face of opponents and abuse the law as a tool of wedge politics, I fully support disrespecting a tribunal's orders when it's made against the common good by particular interests with no consideration about the context at large, and one doing so such proudly accept their consequences of these acts. Only a fool would expect that an order of the court would suffice and would be abided without angering the students to the point of uproar and wanting to punch these little fuckers in the face.

What you argue, is like arguing that scabs in a workplace conflict should be let to go to work because they want to work, that scabs should be able go fetch an order from the court to pass the picket line, and the strikers should take it with a smile. Guess what, scabs are illegal in Quebec for a good reason. Student strikers saw clear as day that respecting the order of the court would mean they would lose all power to impose their will, so from a political standpoint refusing to abide by it was justified, even though legally it is a crime.

When Accurso is sentenced to jail, I suggest he simply refuse to go and we all cheer him up for his civil disobediance.  You'll applaud for sure.  He's just a poor victim of an unfair system who forced him to cheat, after all.

Now you are being insultingly cheeky, mec. Accurso is a crook and shady businessman, his only motivation is using bribes and means to destroy competition to make more money. At least the student strikers have an defensible idea that they shouldn't be paying more money for studying, which is a fair revendication even though I disagree with it.

I don't even disagree with the government hardline per se. But taking a hard line doesn't mean that you cannot find ways to honey your way into alleviating the consequences in a palatable way for those who will be touched. That is showing leadership and compassion. What I oppose is this govenment taking such a crass in-your-face and thuggish way to disrespect the students at every turn, like they were needed to be taught a lesson and never dare to protest again. It is exactly what real "bullying" is: using disbalance of power to abuse the weak by the strong for the sake of showing the pecking order.

We are in a state of social crisis now, whether we like it or not, and it has become almost a civil war-like atmosphere. Quebec is now divided into two camps. You cannot expect one side to play by the rules when it's clear the other part just want to fuck them in the arse and laugh in their faces. Unless, of course, you have a personal satisfaction to see them pussy their way out and go home with their tails in between their legs.

As an aside, I think that by now students should gladly go out of their way to be arrested en masse, to clog the system so much that prosecuting them all becomes unsustainable.

The moment the students aligned themselves with the union, they were fucked.  They walked right into a trap set by the Liberals.  They thought they were smart, they were dumb.  If these guys were representative of the younger generation, I'd say we're fucked.  They are history students who know nothing about history, and they can't seem to learn the game they're playing.

On the contrary, it was a very smart move on their part. It ensures they will have the means AND the apparatus to support a long term conflict without being drained to death by fines and prison time, and they gain expertise to help them in any negociation with the government. It also threatens to broaden the conflict, when the union already have very good reasons to be as much of a pain to the govenment as possible. But of course, such a thing would be labeled "intimidation" by your broad definition of the word "bullying".

It's not a little minority of kids throwing a tamper tantrum, now. Being backed by unions means that they are partnered with a group of organization labeled as "serious" heavyweights in Quebec politics. There is no middle-ground, now. It's way passed simple protest about tuition hikes.

So, they deserved what is coming. 

And so is Charest and his cronies, because they have just ensured that anyone except the gullible, the weak, the obtuse, and the benefactors that will vote Liberal in the next election. If he is reelected it's gonna be 1970 all over again.

That still makes the law unfair and over-reaching, though.

And now people who are against the Plan Nord, or that will protest against the obvious crooked links between the government, the lobbies, and construction entrepreneurs with dubious links with the mob won't be able to manifest freely either, until the next election.

[Drakken]

ADQ lite voted for it. Poor Legault, no PM job for you.

The sad thing is, that it is supposed to be the alternative to the right. No place for real, classical Lib-Con voters like me.

[Neil]

So, Drakken hates civilization and public order, and believes that the only good rule is the rule of the mob?

[Maximus]

Do the students deserve anything but contempt?

Not if they're breaking stuff.