[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Neil]

But why should the internet be treated differently than anything else in society?

Because it's impossible to hurt someone on the internet?

[crazy canuck]

What confuses me is that the backers of this law seem to be the same people who hated the long form census because it was against peoples right to privacy.

I don't know much about the law, but i'm again' it I'm ok with CCTV and the like because you're in public. So I'm not totally on the invasion of privacy bandwagon for all things.. Your computer time is private. You want info like that you should need a warrant (which i know they still need to do further investigation).

I can see the consistency of being for this and against the long gun registry (disclosure here: I was not against the registry).  The registry privacy breach argument was that private information was being collected, stored and used without warrant and without any reasonable grounds.  Here the information can only be used if there is a warrant.  So your computer time is still private in that the police must obtain a warrant before they go snooping.

I actually find the reverse more ironic and that is that people that were for the long gun registry which was arguably more intrusive in terms of privacy are against this measure.

The more I learn about this the more I find the calls against it to be overblown.  But the Conversatives sure did a poor job of explaining this up front.

[viper37]

What is it that British journalist said not so long ago?  Ah, this I think: "privacy is for pedophiles".

I disagree with that statement, and I value my private life.

You open a crack in this, and next thing you know, they'll extend their powers to snoop without a warrant.  Actually, they'll probably do it, they'll just ask for a warrant before making the official arrest.

It's too much power for cops.

If the price to pay is having a few pedos exchanging pictures on-line, so be it.  It's not like there are more pedos now than in the 18th century, we're just doing a better job at protecting our kids instead of hiding it.

I am against the gun registry for hunting weapons, btw.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, how is this any different then the telephone books of old?

[viper37]

Viper, how is this any different then the telephone books of old?

In a telephone book, you have the option of shortening your name: C. Canuck, or not appearing at all (private number).
The phone book will give you the correct phone number for someone you know the adress.  Might not be an issue in a small town, might be an issue in Toronto to search for John Smith.

Police officer can already track my IP, just as well as marketer will track my computer with cookies.
If they want confirmation of who I really am, they can ask for a warrant, it will take them 15 minutes, maybe 30.

[viper37]

Thats all police get here -  a name and contact information.  Anything more private still requires a warrant.

exactly like the gun registry, you mean?

The vehicle analogy doesn't work.  My computer ain't going anywhere, and once recorded here, my IP adress is not going anywhere, I can't delete it myself.
So, if Languish is declared a criminal organization, police can take the time to get a warrant, ask for my IP, check it with my ISP, clearly identify me and come home to arrest me.

If I'm an anti NHL terrorist plotting against the Jets' home arena, cops probably won't bother with a warrant to track me before I plant a bomb.
If they need to identify me after I've planted the bomb, well, they'll easily get a warrant for that.

[crazy canuck]

Police officer can already track my IP, just as well as marketer will track my computer with cookies.
If they want confirmation of who I really am, they can ask for a warrant, it will take them 15 minutes, maybe 30.

That is it exactly.  The main benefit of this legislation is the the information regarding your IP must be retained so that when the police obtain the warrant the idientifying information is there to gather.

fyi, we sometimes run into a problem after getting a court order requiring an ISP to disclose the identity of someone using a particular IP address that the ISP no longer has that information for a variety of reasons.  I expect the police face the same problem.  I see no problem with making sure the police can obtain the information a lawful warrant permits them to have.

[Neil]

I actually find the reverse more ironic and that is that people that were for the long gun registry which was arguably more intrusive in terms of privacy are against this measure.

Those people tended to be urban and not gun-owners, so they didn't care about throwing gun owners under the bus.  Expecting consistent principles from that masses is unwise.

[Neil]

fyi, we sometimes run into a problem after getting a court order requiring an ISP to disclose the identity of someone using a particular IP address that the ISP no longer has that information for a variety of reasons.  I expect the police face the same problem.

Isn't this a good thing?

[crazy canuck]

fyi, we sometimes run into a problem after getting a court order requiring an ISP to disclose the identity of someone using a particular IP address that the ISP no longer has that information for a variety of reasons.  I expect the police face the same problem.

Isn't this a good thing?

In what possible way could this be a good thing.  It is the equilent of someone being able to get away with an offence simply because they were able to keep their mask on.

[Barrister]

Viper, how is this any different then the telephone books of old?

In a telephone book, you have the option of shortening your name: C. Canuck, or not appearing at all (private number).
The phone book will give you the correct phone number for someone you know the adress.  Might not be an issue in a small town, might be an issue in Toronto to search for John Smith.

Police officer can already track my IP, just as well as marketer will track my computer with cookies.
If they want confirmation of who I really am, they can ask for a warrant, it will take them 15 minutes, maybe 30.

It takes the better part of a day to get a warrant in my experience.

[Neil]

fyi, we sometimes run into a problem after getting a court order requiring an ISP to disclose the identity of someone using a particular IP address that the ISP no longer has that information for a variety of reasons.  I expect the police face the same problem.

Isn't this a good thing?

In what possible way could this be a good thing.  It is the equilent of someone being able to get away with an offence simply because they were able to keep their mask on.

Except that it's internet crime, and thus harmless.

It's not as bad as mandatory minimums though.

[Grey Fox]

fyi, we sometimes run into a problem after getting a court order requiring an ISP to disclose the identity of someone using a particular IP address that the ISP no longer has that information for a variety of reasons.  I expect the police face the same problem.

Isn't this a good thing?

In what possible way could this be a good thing.  It is the equilent of someone being able to get away with an offence simply because they were able to keep their mask on.

Canada is going to be a fun Police state if that logic is taken to the end of it's train.

[crazy canuck]

I dont understand that logic.  How is being able to identify people so that a warrant can be obtained to track their activities turning Canada into a police state?

[Grey Fox]

The government holding personal data of that kind for future use & letting the police use it at will (Do warrants ever get shutdown?) is, imo, the start of a Police State.

What's stopping the Conservative majority from starting to track dissention of their agenda?

Plus, that database is going to cost millions to maintain. Some cons friend is gonna get RIIIIIIIICH.