[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

I don't think anybody is condemning him. [We don't know his role in the war so presumption of innocence applies. Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment. Not only because of the Waffen SS but also because he's got nothing to do with the current war that's going on. He didn't fight against Putin's Russia but against a different enemy all together.

There are plenty of Canadians who were victimized by Nazi Germany and this is obviously an insult to them.

It was silly, and stupid, and I'm glad the speaker is resigning over this.

The folks at the Simon Wiesenthal Centre are.  They are the ones who identified this as an issue. 

Here's Simon Wiesenthal Centre's statement:

https://www.fswc.ca/news/fswc-appalled-by-standing-ovation-in-parliament-for-ukrainian-veteran-who-served-in-nazi-military-unit

Toronto (September 24, 2023) – Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center (FSWC) is deeply disturbed by the Canadian Parliament's recognition of a Ukrainian veteran who served in a Nazi military unit during the Second World War implicated in the mass murder of Jews and others. FSWC is further outraged that parliamentarians in the House of Commons gave a standing ovation to the former soldier on Friday. 

Yaroslav Hunka, a 98-year-old immigrant from Ukraine, was introduced by Anthony Rota, Speaker of the House of Commons, as "a Ukrainian Canadian war veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians" and "a Ukrainian hero and a Canadian hero," ignoring the horrific fact that Hunka served in the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, a Nazi military unit whose crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented. 

FSWC issued the following statement: 

"The fact that a veteran who served in a Nazi military unit was invited to and given a standing ovation in Parliament is shocking. At a time of rising antisemitism and Holocaust distortion, it is incredibly disturbing to see Canada's Parliament rise to applaud an individual who was a member of a unit in the Waffen-SS, a Nazi military branch responsible for the murder of Jews and others and that was declared a criminal organization during the Nuremberg Trials. There should be no confusion that this unit was responsible for the mass murder of innocent civilians with a level of brutality and malice that is unimaginable. 

"An apology is owed to every Holocaust survivor and veteran of the Second World War who fought the Nazis, and an explanation must be provided as to how this individual entered the hallowed halls of Canadian Parliament and received recognition from the Speaker of the House and a standing ovation." 

With respect, no.  The Galicia Division has NOT been implicated in the Holocaust.  The SS as a whole, yes - but the Galicia division was quite distinct because it was staffed not by Germans but by Ukrainians.  The Centre wants to conflate anyone who served in the SS in any capacity as being equally responsible for anything the SS did as a whole.  I don't think that's fair.

I think I will trust the folks who have spent decades researching this very thing.

[crazy canuck]

Looks like the Speaker will need to step down.

And he is out.

[viper37]

I think I will trust the folks who have spent decades researching this very thing.

The division was formed in 1943.  They were sent into combat in 1944.  There were no Jews left to exterminate at this time in Ukraine, the genocide had long been carried by then.


14th Waffer Grenadier Division of the SS

The creation of 14th Voluntary Division SS Galizien was announced in April 1943 at ceremonies throughout Galicia. At least 50 documents including contemporary newspaper clippings, radio broadcasts and speeches etc. record the date of 28 April. By June 1943 the first phase of recruitment had taken place.

[crazy canuck]

I will put your squarely in the apologist camp.

[viper37]

I will put your squarely in the apologist camp.

If being an apologist is citing historical facts, so be it.

[crazy canuck]

I will put your squarely in the apologist camp.

If being an apologist is citing historical facts, so be it.

You are making shit up that is completely contrary to what every historian that has been interviewed in Canada has had to say about this.  I never thought I would see the day when an historical minded group like this started making up fucking apologies for people who fought for the SS.

This asshole referred to his time in the SS as the happiest time of his life for fucks sake.  You guys have to get a grip and stop fucking apologizing for Nazis. The fact that it  has become fashionable to celebrate Ukrainians fighting against Russians, doesn't change the fact that he was a fucking SS soldier.

[viper37]

I will put your squarely in the apologist camp.

If being an apologist is citing historical facts, so be it.

You are making shit up that is completely contrary to what every historian that has been interviewed in Canada has had to say about this.  I never thought I would see the day when an historical minded group like this started making up fucking apologies for people who fought for the SS.

This asshole referred to his time in the SS as the happiest time of his life for fucks sake.  You guys have to get a grip and stop fucking apologizing for Nazis. The fact that it  has become fashionable to celebrate Ukrainians fighting against Russians, doesn't change the fact that he was a fucking SS soldier.

I'm not making shit up.  Neither is BB.  We're looking at historical records of this regiment and this individual.

The Nazis eliminated the Jewish population of Ukraine as soon as they entered the area in 1941-1942.

You can read about it here, it wasn't pretty and they were often aided by the local population:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/The-Nazi-occupation-of-Soviet-Ukraine

[crazy canuck]

For people who interested to hear the facts about this disgrace here is an interview you will find informative.

The person being interviewed says this is basic history but a lot of Canadians don't know, or I would add choose to ignore, that basic history.

Front Burner: How did a Nazi fighter end up in Parliament?

[Grey Fox]

God damn federal government.

[Barrister]

I will put your squarely in the apologist camp.

If being an apologist is citing historical facts, so be it.

You are making shit up that is completely contrary to what every historian that has been interviewed in Canada has had to say about this.  I never thought I would see the day when an historical minded group like this started making up fucking apologies for people who fought for the SS.

This asshole referred to his time in the SS as the happiest time of his life for fucks sake.  You guys have to get a grip and stop fucking apologizing for Nazis. The fact that it  has become fashionable to celebrate Ukrainians fighting against Russians, doesn't change the fact that he was a fucking SS soldier.

Not all Nazis, not all SS, are created equal.

First of all it would be wrong to call Hunka a "Nazi".  He was not a member of the Nazi party.  I don't think  Ukrainians would be allowed to join the Party.

Obviously he was a member of the SS, but a member of a very specific division - the Galicia Division, recruited from within Ukraine.

Hunka, and any Galicia Division member who came to Canada, was vetted before being allowed entry, and found not to have committed war crimes.  The issue came up again in the 1980s, and Canada determined that mere membership in the Galicia Division was not a war crime.

So yes - I absolutely will apologize for guys like Hunka who wound up fighting against the Soviets.  He made a choice when all of the options available to him were bad choices.

I think the optics of giving him a standing ovation in Parliament were terrible as it gave the Russians a talking point, but Hunka himself does not deserve condemnation.

And by the way - do you have a source for the "happiest days of my life"?  I thought you sourced it to Simon Weisenthal Centre, but their statement makes no reference to it.

[Jacob]

I guess you're not aligned with your party leader on this, BB:

Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre said Wednesday that extending an invite to a Ukrainian veteran who fought with a Nazi unit to attend a parliamentary function is the "biggest single diplomatic embarrassment" in the country's history and he's blaming Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for the mishap.

...

"Every single person ought to have been vetted for their diplomatic and security sensitivities if the prime minister and his massive apparatus were doing their jobs," Poilievre said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/yaroslav-hunka-fallout-1.6979628

He apparently also believes the Office of the Speaker of Parliament should be controlled by the PMO, which doesn't seem in accordance with Canadian Parliamentary democracy.

[Sheilbh]

He apparently also believes the Office of the Speaker of Parliament should be controlled by the PMO, which doesn't seem in accordance with Canadian Parliamentary democracy.

I mentioned earlier - I can believe the Speaker is responsible for inviting a guest to the Commons. Although I'd query if that's appropriate for a speech by a foreign head of state without some involvement of the government. Not least because the Speaker won't have the same resources as the PM/government.

But I can't believe that the government has the same guest in a private reception with the PM and a visiting head of state without doing their own checks/vetting. At best it is incredibly negligent that the government's inviting people to meet foreign heads of state on official visits based on the word of the Speaker's office (which if it's anything like the UK, is not set up for vetting people - it's clerks and experts in parliamentary procedure not people who can assess the embarrassment, or any other, risk to a foreign leader ), at worst they're just not telling the truth and are very happy to let the Speaker take the fall.

[Barrister]

I guess you're not aligned with your party leader on this, BB:

Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre said Wednesday that extending an invite to a Ukrainian veteran who fought with a Nazi unit to attend a parliamentary function is the "biggest single diplomatic embarrassment" in the country's history and he's blaming Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for the mishap.

...

"Every single person ought to have been vetted for their diplomatic and security sensitivities if the prime minister and his massive apparatus were doing their jobs," Poilievre said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/yaroslav-hunka-fallout-1.6979628

He apparently also believes the Office of the Speaker of Parliament should be controlled by the PMO, which doesn't seem in accordance with Canadian Parliamentary democracy.

I'm not sure how we're not aligned...

I think "biggest single diplomatic embarrassment" is almost certainly hyperbole, but it was embarassing and granted Russia a diplomatic win in a tim eperiod when they've had very few of them.  I also don't get how the PMO should be "controlled" by the PMO, when the article talks about how people in the gallery should be properly vetted.

Rota's spokesperson has said that the Speaker's guest list for the event was not shared with the Prime Minister's Office.

Rota's picks to be in the gallery were sent to the House of Commons protocol office and the confirmed list of attendees was then shared with corporate security, which is partly responsible for security in the parliamentary precinct, including the Commons chamber in West Block.

As for other embarrassing moments in Canadian diplomacy, just off the top of my head...



Or how about being voted down the last two times we tried to get a Security Council seat?

[viper37]

Saskatchewan fighting the good fights, emergency recall of the parliament to discuss pressing issues:
Moe vows to use notwithstanding clause after court injunction halts pronoun policy

[...]
Premier Scott Moe responded to the injunction ruling by announcing the legislative assembly would reconvene on Oct. 10, instead of Oct. 25, to pass the legislation.

"Our government is extremely dismayed by the judicial overreach of the court blocking implementation of the Parental Inclusion and Consent policy," said Moe.

As such, Moe said he would recall MLAs to make sure the policy is implemented "using the notwithstanding clause of the Canadian constitution to pass legislation to protect parental rights," regardless of the judge's decision.

"It is frankly shocking that, in the face of the court's ruling that this policy will inflict irreparable harm on children, the Government of Saskatchewan intends to invoke the notwithstanding clause to impose it anyway," Adam Goldenberg, lead counsel for UR Pride and a partner at McCarthy Tétrault LLP, said in a statement Thursday.
[...]

[Grey Fox]

I always feel like the rhetoric of the pro-pronouns crowd is insanely alarmist.

Children are resilient and will adapt to situation they don't control. That's what being a children means. To be consistently thrown into situation that you do not have control over.