[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

One other thing on how this is a win for the NDP: Programs like dental care, pharmacare and low cost housing were the main points of their campaign platform of the last election. They did not win; yet will still be able to get these programs passed. How is that not a win?

So, it's ok to give State funds to private companies for some healthcare services, but not for others?
And this time, we won't have trouble recruiting and holding pharmacists in hospitals, unlike doctors, where we would lose them all if we ever tolerated private clinics? 

And of course, dental care costs will stop increasing by magic, not creating a bottomless pit from which we throw money at millionaires.

Logical.  If only you don't think about it.

[crazy canuck]

One other thing on how this is a win for the NDP: Programs like dental care, pharmacare and low cost housing were the main points of their campaign platform of the last election. They did not win; yet will still be able to get these programs passed. How is that not a win?

So, it's ok to give State funds to private companies for some healthcare services, but not for others?
And this time, we won't have trouble recruiting and holding pharmacists in hospitals, unlike doctors, where we would lose them all if we ever tolerated private clinics? 

And of course, dental care costs will stop increasing by magic, not creating a bottomless pit from which we throw money at millionaires.

Logical.  If only you don't think about it.

I think your post betrays a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge of how our single-payer system works.

Edit: It would be helpful if you explained what you actually mean rather than the sarcasm because it is really hard to understand what points you're trying to make

[viper37]

One other thing on how this is a win for the NDP: Programs like dental care, pharmacare and low cost housing were the main points of their campaign platform of the last election. They did not win; yet will still be able to get these programs passed. How is that not a win?

So, it's ok to give State funds to private companies for some healthcare services, but not for others?
And this time, we won't have trouble recruiting and holding pharmacists in hospitals, unlike doctors, where we would lose them all if we ever tolerated private clinics? 

And of course, dental care costs will stop increasing by magic, not creating a bottomless pit from which we throw money at millionaires.

Logical.  If only you don't think about it.

I think your post betrays a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge of how our single-payer system works.

Edit: It would be helpful if you explained what you actually mean rather than the sarcasm because it is really hard to understand what points you're trying to make

The plan is to either expand our "free" healthcare system at the Federal level, or mimic Quebec's system or pharmacare, via a unique insurance premium, totally independent of individual experience.

Same as with a private clinic.  It is apparently bad to have private clinics, because it leads to a drain of resources from the public to the private, usually, the best resources, as I'm told.

Any such insurance will lead to an increase in medication demand and therefore costs.

An increase in demand means that private pharmacies will require more staff, as in, more pharmacists to provide services.

Since hospitals are also fighting for these rare resources, any increase in demand without taking care of the supply issue (education) will increase the staff shortage in hospitals who won't be able to compete with the private sector that now benefits from an increase profit margin due to the public not controlling its costs as well as a private insurer, except by offering a lesser coverage (like, many medications aren't paid by the public, EPO, among others, but it's too costly).

That is a transfer of money from the public to the private, the same as when our single payer provincial systems send a patient to a private clinic.

Dental care is a similar matter: increase of demand leads to an increase in price.  Since the public is not hiring dentists, we avoid the aforementionned problem of competing with private wages.  However, we face the same hypocrisy the left usually complains about: we pay private healthcare businesses to provide "free" (more likely reduced, as with a franchise) healthcare for some patients.

And we totally sidelined the fact that healthcare is a provincial responsibility and the Federal still hasn't increased its health transfers to cover the increase in costs and balance with the additional punction it takes into our pockets, with increased income taxes and the increase in sales tax revenue due to inflation.

In other words, the Federal government is getting richer on its province backs, it further centralize its governance instead of respecting provincial autonomy by forcing everyone to participate in its bullshit & costly programs.

Either reduce the income taxes or increase the provincial health&education transfers.  Creating coast-to-coast programs irrespectful of provincial wills is the worst case scenario.

[crazy canuck]

Two points in rebuttal. first there is ample evidence that providing this sort of health care actually reduces cost because under our current system the free care does not kick in until things get serious.  Primary care = reduced acute care costs. Second, this is not taking from other resources it is an addition too existing resources so I don't understand your point about hospitals.

Lastly, I don't understand your point about competition.  Almost all medical services are provided through private actors (almost all of which are incorporated as medical professional corporations).

[viper37]

Two points in rebuttal. first there is ample evidence that providing this sort of health care actually reduces cost because under our current system the free care does not kick in until things get serious.  Primary care = reduced acute care costs. Second, this is not taking from other resources it is an addition too existing resources so I don't understand your point about hospitals.

Lastly, I don't understand your point about competition.  Almost all medical services are provided through private actors (almost all of which are incorporated as medical professional corporations).

In 1997, my insurance premium, for government pharmacare was 175$.  This year will be close to 700$ and I have 1 month under a private regime that is not counted.  Plus the premiums, plus the fact that this insurance covers roughly 1/3 of what private insurances covers.  My private isurance costs overall more, but covers lots of things more too.  However, the part of my premium that is strictly for medication is similar to what I used to pay the government, but I get access to 3x more medications.  Govt franchise is 35% of the cost, my current franchise is 15%.

There is no reason the assume the Federal government plan will be more efficient or will have better costs control.  To control the rise in premiums, the Quebec government had to refuse coverage of some medication that it judged "overused", like stomach pains meds.  Or impose restrictions in the form of requiring additional forms to be filled by the doctors, which costs some fees.

Still, the premium does not cover the costs of the program, and money has to be diverted from the general healthcare budget.

Like I said, the provinces that wants it can set it up and the Feds can increase their transfers or reduce income tax so provinces have room to tax us more for their services.  It's not in their mandate to invest provincial fields.


As for the hospitals: they need pharmacists to distributed medications to their patients.  The same people who provide your meds in your local drugstore.  Same diploma.  You have a finite amount of resources.  Hospitals will face increase competition from private companies to recruit the professionals they need.

Might has well socialize legal services in the country.  It's not that affordable to retain a lawyer and it's becoming an essential service nowadays. The government could set up a mandatory legal defense insurance, with elevated premiums and negotiate a fixed rate with provincial bars.  It would work wonders there too.

[crazy canuck]

Ok a jurisdictional beef.  Fair enough, but what are you gonna do about provinces where the conservatives will never implement a Pharma care program. That is where the federal government needs to step in. My preference would be to subsidize the provinces that do create this policy and then have a national program for the provinces that are under Conservative rule

Kind of like the way the Carbon tax works

[viper37]

Ok a jurisdictional beef.  Fair enough, but what are you gonna do about provinces where the conservatives will never implement a Pharma care program. That is where the federal government needs to step in. My preference would be to subsidize the provinces that do create this policy and then have a national program for the provinces that are under Conservative rule

Kind of like the way the Carbon tax works

If the people in these provinces want such programs, they will vote for a party that proposes it.  You don't have to decide what is good for them, no more than I have to decide what is good for you.

And neither pharmacare nor dentalcare will be single payer systems.  They'll be closes to the American ACA where everyone who's not covered by a private health care plan has to subscribe to the government insurance plan, whether they want it or not.  You need a lot of healthy payers to make the regime even remotely affordable.

[Grey Fox]

Weak provincial governments lead to the federal over stepping. Over & over & over again.

[crazy canuck]

Weak Conservative provincial governments lead to the federal over stepping having to exercise Federal power under the Constitution to legislate in the voids vacated by those governments. Over & over & over again.

fyp

[Grey Fox]

Potato
Patate

[crazy canuck]

 

[viper37]

Weak Conservative provincial governments lead to the federal over stepping having to exercise Federal power under the Constitution to legislate in the voids vacated by those governments. Over & over & over again.

fyp

Lots of Liberal governments in lots of provinces.  Don't know if there are any NDP provincial govt right now.

Like I said, if the people wanted it, a party would propose it and the people would vote according to their wishes.  It's not a Federal govt job, on top of being a very bad idea to begin with.  Quebec got out of the dental care thing for kids in the early 90s because of costs overruns.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, plenty of provincial governments have expressed interest in this sort of program (including the NDP government in BC, which by the way has been in power for some time ).  The main stumbling block is how to fund it, which is why Federal support is required.

[viper37]

Viper, plenty of provincial governments have expressed interest in this sort of program (including the NDP government in BC, which by the way has been in power for some time ).

Forgot about BC.  So, good, the people want it.

The main stumbling block is how to fund it, which is why Federal support is required.

Which is why the Feds need to increase their health transfers.
Quebec did it without Federal funding.  BC is richer than Quebec, but it can't afford it.  Kinda weird, no?

[crazy canuck]

Our provincial government is quickly losing patience with municipalities who are not playing ball with the provinces plans to increase supply of housing.  Yesterday an umbrella organization that represents the municipalities went so far as to issue a "report" that supply will not affect prices.  The quotation marks is because it is less than 10 pages - not a lot of analysis, really just a lot of declarative statements. 

The problem, which the report does not address, is that it was also recently reported that BC's immigration rate from all sources (international and interprovincial) is at a 30 year high with no expectation that rate will decrease.

Something has to give, and my guess is the province is going to step in and start taking some control over land use decisions.