[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Sheilbh]

The NDP has been exceptionally successful despite the the lack in electoral victories / number of seats, and never having a Prime Minister.  NDP policy proposals of the past have become the mainstream, enacted through a Liberal Prime Minister.  They've been able to drive more policy as a minority party than the Conservatives have with their many more seats.

Isn't that just because the Liberals don't want to be squeezed on both sides?

Governments always steal good opposition policies - it's why I think oppositions shouldn't announce too many policies before an election because all the good ones will be nicked and you're left with your most fringe/niche positions

[Jacob]

Isn't that just because the Liberals don't want to be squeezed on both sides?

That is exactly why, of course.

That doesn't change the fact that the NDP is accomplishing things, and voting for them is having a direct influence on the governance of the country.

Governments always steal good opposition policies - it's why I think oppositions shouldn't announce too many policies before an election because all the good ones will be nicked and you're left with your most fringe/niche positions

That is one way of doing politics, yes, but not the only one.

[Sheilbh]

That is exactly why, of course.

That doesn't change the fact that the NDP is accomplishing things, and voting for them is having a direct influence on the governance of the country.

Although it only works if the Liberals are in office/until the Liberals see them as a threat.

I could be wrong but from BBoy's posts () I seem to remember that last time the right split the centre-right wing were very small/weak. I feel like if there was a similar split or the right turned quite radical the best move for Liberals would be to try and hoover up as much of the centre-right as they could to really position the rest as being on the radical right and to absolutely dominate as much of the centre as they can.

That is one way of doing politics, yes, but not the only one.

Sure - but at some point I'd imagine it would frustrate the left if they kept seeing ideas nicked and then watered down by a more centrist/liberal government. You can influence a party of power like Liberals but that may lead to only strengthening/entrenching their position.

[Jacob]

Although it only works if the Liberals are in office/until the Liberals see them as a threat.

... or if the Liberals need them to support a minority government

I could be wrong but from BBoy's posts () I seem to remember that last time the right split the centre-right wing were very small/weak. I feel like if there was a similar split or the right turned quite radical the best move for Liberals would be to try and hoover up as much of the centre-right as they could to really position the rest as being on the radical right and to absolutely dominate as much of the centre as they can.

For sure. And that, then would give room for the NDP to become a more viable left alternative. But that's all pretty speculative right now.

The point that PRC made - and that I agree with - is that the NDP has been very effective at enacting their agenda and affecting the polity and the lives of Canadians. If that is the measure of effectiveness for a political party, then they're doing quite well.

If it's about positioning themselves to win a majority then maybe not, but it's hard to see a promising road map there given the realities of Canadian politics.

Sure - but at some point I'd imagine it would frustrate the left if they kept seeing ideas nicked and then watered down by a more centrist/liberal government. You can influence a party of power like Liberals but that may lead to only strengthening/entrenching their position.

I don't know if that's how it's framed in the Canadian public mind. Certainly I'm not seeing it. If the Liberals nick all the good NDP policies and implement them that's good as far as I'm concerned - that means good policies are being implemented.

There are many ways things could shape, but if we imagine a scenario where the Libs keep nicking NDP policies and there's not that much daylight between the two parties, while simultaneously the Conservatives fracture and get involved in far-right ideological civil war that is appetizing to Canadians, and the Liberals eventually get tired and bog down in some corruption scandal with legs...

In that case, it's not impossible that voters will go "I'm done with the Libs for now... the Conservatives are awful... and the NDP is slighly more left liberals with a decent leader..." leading to an NDP victory.

Not super likely, no. And it requires the Consevatives to not get their shit together. But it's not entirely implausible either.

And in the meantime, the NDP is keeping the Libs further on the left than the right.

[viper37]

So, Ottawa is in the verge of a civil confrontation since their police force has totally abandoned the idea to do anything about the freedumb terrorists.

At least from what I read on the socials.

Here's a suggestion: convince police officers that the protesters are actually students. This should spur them into action.

You want the police to stand aside while the protesters trash downtown Ottawa and the government to specifically avoid condemning the organizers?  Because that's what we did with the last round of student protests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Quebec_student_protests

We even let them block access to universities for students not participating in the strike.  And we had tons of supportive comments in the media how it was beautiful to see the youth taking action for their future.  Which happened to be screwing up part-time students, but hey, who cares, really?   Universities should be the rich and the lazy.  Certainly not active workers trying to improve their condition.  That would be anti-intellectual.  Or something like that.

[viper37]

Students, indigenous, BLM, general left leaning protests. Anything that isn't angry white 40 something men

I hope the left learns something and we start protesting by using trucks.

Such institutional violence against peaceful, non threatening, non disturbing protesters :(We truly live in a fascist state https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW8kgvPW3CU
Vandalism only happens during right-wing protests.  If only these guys would take cue from the left on how to organize their protests in an orderly manner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7fn1-F9xrY

[viper37]

I am not concerned about paralyzing downtown Ottawa, or hurting the economy.

I am concerned about the rise of fascism and the complacency of modern-day conservatism to it.

That is a problem, indeed, in many rightwing mainstream parties.  However, it would be unfair to caracterize this protest as strictly facist. It's a good melting pot of everything, even totally clueless people, like any other protests.

But some elements of the Conservative party tend to avoid the subject and stick too close to Trumpism for my own comfort.

I will have to wait and see what the new leader does and says.

[Grey Fox]

Students, indigenous, BLM, general left leaning protests. Anything that isn't angry white 40 something men

I hope the left learns something and we start protesting by using trucks.

Such institutional violence against peaceful, non threatening, non disturbing protesters :(We truly live in a fascist state https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW8kgvPW3CU
Vandalism only happens during right-wing protests.  If only these guys would take cue from the left on how to organize their protests in an orderly manner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7fn1-F9xrY

What are you trying to tell me?

You link videos of the anti-cops protests that always turn violent in exposing what? That the left is more violent than the right? Of course, the authorities actually confront left leaning protest while standing around taking selfies when Nazis show up.

[Oexmelin]

but hey, who cares, really?  

You certainly do. And I understand. Endlessly rehashing your schtick about "isn't the left THE WORST" is way more comfortable  than taking a long, hard look at the kinds of people your sort of conservatism attracts.

[Malthus]

I can also say the the BC NDP is doing a pretty credible job in government. The "care more about ideological purity than practical matters of governing" does not seem particularly applicable in this case, I don't think.

I'm only talking about the federal party. Provincial politics are a whole other kettle of fish.

[viper37]

There is no comparison to protesters crowding Parliament Hill, whatever cause they may espouse, whether I agree with them or despise them.

Montreal used to have a protest every week or so during summer time, before covid.  Blocking the streets, vandalizing, attacking journalists.  Usually, only reactionary rightwingers like me complain about the protesters taking the population hostage and paralyzing the city downtown.

Not even counting the non political riots related to hockey or Guns 'n Roses not finishing their show.

So, again, I fail to see the different here, why are some (many) columnists/editorialists non against protests.

[viper37]

but hey, who cares, really?  

You certainly do. And I understand. Endlessly rehashing your schtick about "isn't the left THE WORST" is way more comfortable  than taking a long, hard look at the kinds of people your sort of conservatism attracts.

Read again what I just said.

[viper37]

Students, indigenous, BLM, general left leaning protests. Anything that isn't angry white 40 something men

I hope the left learns something and we start protesting by using trucks.

Such institutional violence against peaceful, non threatening, non disturbing protesters :(We truly live in a fascist state https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW8kgvPW3CU
Vandalism only happens during right-wing protests.  If only these guys would take cue from the left on how to organize their protests in an orderly manner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7fn1-F9xrY

What are you trying to tell me?

You link videos of the anti-cops protests that always turn violent in exposing what? That the left is more violent than the right? Of course, the authorities actually confront left leaning protest while standing around taking selfies when Nazis show up.

The police does not act differently with these protesters than they act with others, be it students, BLM or your variety of collective against something.  Occupy Wall Street in Montreal & Ottawa lasted for a whole summer.  Police will usually only intervene when there's violence, and by then it's too late.

[Malthus]

Isn't that just because the Liberals don't want to be squeezed on both sides?

That is exactly why, of course.

That doesn't change the fact that the NDP is accomplishing things, and voting for them is having a direct influence on the governance of the country.

Governments always steal good opposition policies - it's why I think oppositions shouldn't announce too many policies before an election because all the good ones will be nicked and you're left with your most fringe/niche positions

That is one way of doing politics, yes, but not the only one.

The problem is that political parties get corrupt the longer they stay in office.

The trajectory here is that the NDP keeps the liberals in office longer - but I view that as unhealthy. It would be far better if they switched office from time to time.

But traditionally, that had not happened. Rather, it was the conservatives who switched office with the liberals from time to time - usually after the liberals were seen as excessively corrupt and complacent.

The conservatives imploding (by being absolutely digested by the Trumpite nutters) is a very bad thing, from this perspective. It would be disasterous if they ever managed to get into office. However, the more likely outcome is that it will ruin the conservatives' chances - but, while this is better, it is also bad, in that it appears to ensure liberal domination into the foreseeable future.

What I'd like to see is a viable centre-right, liberal, and progressive party, each with a real shot: what we are likely to get, is a bloated and complacent liberal party, a marginalized hard right, and an isolated NDP increasingly concentrating on fringe issues because the liberals have eaten much of their lunch.

The worry is that, eventually, discontent with liberal corruption and complacency won't break to the benefit of the NDP, but of the hard right ... while provincial politics are different from federal, that is exactly what happened here in Ontario. The provincial liberals were seen as complacent and corrupt, their support went to both the conservatives and NDP, but the way the vote split, the Conservatives won.

[Jacob]

Montreal used to have a protest every week or so during summer time, before covid.  Blocking the streets, vandalizing, attacking journalists.  Usually, only reactionary rightwingers like me complain about the protesters taking the population hostage and paralyzing the city downtown.

Not even counting the non political riots related to hockey or Guns 'n Roses not finishing their show.

So, again, I fail to see the different here, why are some (many) columnists/editorialists non against protests.

You fail to see the difference between something that's over in a day, versus something that's gone on for a week and looks like it's going on for a significant time to come?

You fail to see the difference between blocking off an entire downtown core, choking major and minor routes of access with vehicles versus masses of people choking off a few blocks of road?

You don't see the difference between truckers blasting their really loud air horns for more than a week late into the evening, for days on end, causing sleep deprivation for large number of people. Have you ever tried to get a baby to sleep? Do you imagine it's easier if some asshole truckers are blasting his horn late into the evening right outside your house?

Listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGonbh6wc6Y <--- that's at 11 pm.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1488702952713900034 <-- in a residential area, no police in sight, late evening

https://twitter.com/i/status/1487255986545074176

https://twitter.com/i/status/1488535831849705478

https://twitter.com/i/status/1487960519000702976

You think this going on for 12-16 hours a day where you live for a week is equivalent to a localized riot on foot that's over in a few hours?

I know you have it as an article of faith that anything right wingers do the left wing has done more terribly, but no - there are no examples of left wing protests in this country that have had remotely the same impact on the regular folks who live in the area.