[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Valmy]

Maybe Canada should teach both of their official languages in schools so it is free and local

[Barrister]

Maybe Canada should teach both of their official languages in schools so it is free and local

Both languages are taught in school, but in the regular stream the amount of French taught is nowhere near enough to become fluent.

There is French immersion.  In pretty much every jurisdiction you can sign your kid up to go into French immersion classes at no extra cost.  But then again we have to talk about privilege.  Immigrant kids hardly ever are signed up into french immersion - why would you if the kid is only just learning english themselves?  It also means travelling to a more distant school - even if bussing is free (it usually is) it's an extra pain and inconvenience.  And again, signing your kid up for French immersion so that 40 years later they can aspire to be a high level government bureaucrat requires an amount of forethought that only a lot of privilege will allow.

Like I said, I don't know what the solution is.

[Valmy]

If free french instruction is being provided all around the country is being provided then I don't see the problem. I mean it is not some big shocking new piece of information that there are two official languages. You can either take advantage of the free opportunity or not. How fluent do you need to be for these positions anyway?

[Barrister]

If free french instruction is being provided all around the country is being provided then I don't see the problem. I mean it is not some big shocking new piece of information that there are two official languages. You can either take advantage of the free opportunity or not. How fluent do you need to be for these positions anyway?

You're not looking at it by way of systemic barriers though.

I mean there's no overt racism in hiring for senior positions in the government.  No one is being denied these jobs explicitly because of their skin colour.  So then why is it that in a country where 22% of people identify as a visible minority, all those positions identified in the article are 100% white?

No, it's not shocking news there are two official languages.  But if you're from a disadvantaged community, a new immigrant, or where English is already your second language, you're not able to take the long view and go "you know I should try to learn French today so in 20 years I can get a really senior position".  No, you're just trying to get through the day.

[crazy canuck]

It is not "very difficult" within Federal institutions. There are lots of examples of adults learning French so they can progress within Federal public service.  The Federal government provides language training for this very purpose.

The main problem with Conservative politicians is they leave learning French way too late.  If someone has any ambition to climb the heights of public service (including politicians), learning the two official languages should be part of their plan, not an after thought.

Which is why the article talks about "systemic barriers".  French language training within the government involves going to French language training in Quebec for a number of months.  Yes you're still paid to do so, but being able up uproot your life for a number of months (while you probably have a number of obligations at home) requires a certain degree of privilege.  Similarly being able to plan for your peak career goals early on also requires some privilege.

You are just factually wrong.  The training is provided all across the country. Also, I don't feel sorry about people who can't be bothered to learn French for positions that require French when they know that going in.  Lots of people do it successfully.  You are talking about the folks who don't bother and then complain about it.

[Barrister]

You are just factually wrong.  The training is provided all across the country.

When I was with PPSC in Yukon I remember French language training being mentioned to be in Quebec.  Which makes sense - it'd be hard to do full immersion while in English Canada.

I have no doubt you can do some level of training in classrooms / online from almost anywhere.  But to develop fluency you need to live the language.

[crazy canuck]

You are just factually wrong.  The training is provided all across the country.

When I was with PPSC in Yukon I remember French language training being mentioned to be in Quebec.  Which makes sense - it'd be hard to do full immersion while in English Canada.

I have no doubt you can do some level of training in classrooms / online from almost anywhere.  But to develop fluency you need to live the language.

Nice anecdote.  Hardly reflective of reality.

[Sheilbh]

If free french instruction is being provided all around the country is being provided then I don't see the problem. I mean it is not some big shocking new piece of information that there are two official languages. You can either take advantage of the free opportunity or not. How fluent do you need to be for these positions anyway?

Yeah. I don't have an issue with state positions requiring competence in the two languages of the state.

Although I quite like the Irish way of phasing out the Irish requirement for the police force. So it went from requiring to be competent in English and Irish to requiring competence in two languages, of which one must be English or Irish. This was specifically to make it easier to recruit non-nationals and immigrant communities (especially those who didn't grow up in Ireland so didn't have mandatory Irish at school). It probably helped open up that career for more people and increased the language capacity of the state.

[crazy canuck]

If free french instruction is being provided all around the country is being provided then I don't see the problem. I mean it is not some big shocking new piece of information that there are two official languages. You can either take advantage of the free opportunity or not. How fluent do you need to be for these positions anyway?

Yeah. I don't have an issue with state positions requiring competence in the two languages of the state.

Although I quite like the Irish way of phasing out the Irish requirement for the police force. So it went from requiring to be competent in English and Irish to requiring competence in two languages, of which one must be English or Irish. This was specifically to make it easier to recruit non-nationals and immigrant communities (especially those who didn't grow up in Ireland so didn't have mandatory Irish at school). It probably helped open up that career for more people and increased the language capacity of the state.

That model is effectively what we have.  The odd thing about BB's article is it was complaining about the top jobs where speaking both languages is a necessity.

[Barrister]

That model is effectively what we have.  The odd thing about BB's article is it was complaining about the top jobs where speaking both languages is a necessity.

It's not just jobs at the very top that require bilingualism however.  Pretty much all middle to upper management requires you to be bilingual.

[crazy canuck]

That model is effectively what we have.  The odd thing about BB's article is it was complaining about the top jobs where speaking both languages is a necessity.

It's not just jobs at the very top that require bilingualism however.  Pretty much all middle to upper management requires you to be bilingual.

Funny, in my practice I deal with a number of senior people in Federal organizations who are unilingual English speakers.  Care to share where you are getting your data to claim that "all" middle and upper management positions must be bilingual?

[Oexmelin]

Which is why the article talks about "systemic barriers".  French language training within the government involves going to French language training in Quebec for a number of months.  Yes you're still paid to do so, but being able up uproot your life for a number of months (while you probably have a number of obligations at home) requires a certain degree of privilege.  Similarly being able to plan for your peak career goals early on also requires some privilege.

Certainly, some of the barriers to learning French may be systemic, and to gain fluency requires spending some time in a francophone environment. That these environments can now mostly be found uniquely in Quebec may be something to think about as welll...   

But part of the issue is not because it's uniquely difficult to learn a third language as a migrant. Of course it is. Yet, this is what is being expected of immigrants in Quebec as well, where they also learn English. As has been mentioned, there are many non-white francophones that do exist as well - whether from Africa or Haiti (or even Caribbean France). But, of course, the expectation of the writer is that Quebecers (and francophones, which he seems to think are synonymous) are overwhelmingly white. My uncle, gasp, also got to learn French in addition to his native English and Kanien'keha. So, there may indeed be some barriers to access at the higher echelon of the civil service. They seem to affect not just monolingual English speakers. 

But I am very much certain that the general disparaging of French as a uniquely bureaucratic requirement, a frustrating remnant of bygone years that is targeted at poor unilingual anglos, in short, as just a thing to complain about rather than a fundamental part of Canadian identity has nothing to do with the lack of luster that French may enjoy among immigrant communities. I mean: I can't blame migratnts. Of course, it's hard to adopt to a new country. But if the message you continuously hear when you grow up is that, in fact, it is entirely possible to ignore learning French because it's just some folkloric holdover from the racist folks over there, it's not exactly tempting to volunteer for that work.

The privilege, in this instance, is not about French language requirement: that's just yet another convenient excuse to serve us again that favorite right-wing rant. That privilege is that of a few people indeed aware that French opens up position in the higher civil service and therefore willing to share that message among themselves, but not among their dark-skin neighbors apparently.

So, maybe, question that approach before once vomiting barely dressed-up prejudices under the guise of a fake wokeness that guy would in other circumstances shit all over. I am really so fucking over it, like GF. That these columns are published a) in the US and b) in English betrays all sorts of funny privileges, like the one that thinks that you can just write about a "White subculture" with a knowing smile and a nod, because those people you write about will probably not read your trash. Motherfucker, he's not an immigrant. What's his excuse?

[viper37]

That is an odd conclusion that somehow it is not possible for people of colour to learn French.  It also ignores entirely that we had a Black GG of Haitian heritage who spoke fluent French.

It's not that people of colour can't learn French - it's that it's very difficult to learn a second language as an adult, never mind a third.  How many immigrants to Canada do you know that even after years or decades in the country still haven't mastered English?

I started typing out how someone from Haiti is the exception that proves the rule, since French is an official language of that country.  But it sounds like Michaelle Jean is just a language freak - she is fluent in English, French, Italian, Spanish and Haitian Creole.  Which is great for her, but expecting our civil servants to all have that kind of ability with language is unrealistic.

And do you think it is easy for someone living in a very small village on the northern shore of the St-Lawrence to learn english?

Apparently, it wasn't racist at all to ask them to learn english to work in basic jobs, like being a factory worker with an english speaking foreman and instructions printed in english only.

But asking from an english speaker to learn french, that is the most vile, racist thing we can ask of someone.

His examples are pretty badly chosen, and totally ignores the history of the country.  The Union of 2 nations was John A. McDonald's argument to get Quebec to join the Confederation.  He's been dead for a little more than 50 years.

All I see here is the same bullshit I've heard since I was a teen.  Quebecers should just shut up and learn english.  We ain't supposed to live the country to live our lives the way we want because we are stronger together, but we can't live with our disgusting, inferior culture inside Canada.

Meh.

As for Trudeau, he's opposed to official bilinguism, he said so more than once, it's synonym with tribalism for him.

[viper37]

Leslyn Lewis didn't fail because she doesn't speak french.

Yeah, it's hard to learn a new language has an adult. If you can't do it, it might be proof that you are not fit to be a top civil servant in the, apparently, 68 categories.

For fuck sake, if our different language pisses you all so much the next time it comes up, let us leave this dumb racist country.

yeah, they get all worked up because 68 people out of 33 millions are expected to be bilingual.

I've yet to see a unilingual French Prime Minister, or Supreme Court Judge, weird that bilinguism is a requirement then.

[viper37]

Which is why the article talks about "systemic barriers".  French language training within the government involves going to French language training in Quebec for a number of months.  Yes you're still paid to do so, but being able up uproot your life for a number of months (while you probably have a number of obligations at home) requires a certain degree of privilege.  Similarly being able to plan for your peak career goals early on also requires some privilege.

And for Quebecers to learn english does not require to uproot themselves?  You think no one here has evern done immersion in another province, or for some, in another country, far away from home?

Besides, there are french classes in all provinces and in at least one territory.  My cousin used to be a french teacher in Yukon, in schools as well as for adults.  And we have television and internet everywhere.  Do you think I stay here only for the charming personality of all members?

AFAIK, one of CC's son studied in a french a school and is bilingual.  I've never heard he moved to Quebec for a decade.

And there are other parts of the country where they speak french.  Like a good part of New Brunswick, despite the government's best effort to assimilate them.  Around Louisbourg in Nova Scotia is still french, with french schools and even english speakers who can speak french quite fluently.  Eastern and Norhtern Ontario are home to large french speaking communities, especially close to Quebec's borders.

It also seems to negate the fact that many people learn to speak Spanish, despite not having a single province in the country where Spanish is the official language.  If an American living in New York can learn spanish, why can't a Canadian living in Toronto learn french?

For once, I'll agree with CC, if you have higher up ambitions, don't think about learning the other official language once you decide to make the jump, begin earlier.  I've never heard of someone waking up one morning and deciding he/she wants to be a national party leader or a Supreme Court justice.