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[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

Started by Josephus, March 22, 2011, 09:27:34 PM

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crazy canuck

Quote from: Josephus on March 23, 2011, 07:23:23 PM
Say you and I are leaders of political parties. Say you lead party A and I lead Party B. Our parties have very little in common. WE are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I like squares, you like circles.  Now you say you are going to table a budget and you want my support. I say, "I doubt that can happen but look, if you throw in A, B and C, maybe I will."

Instead lets deal with what really happened.

Months ago Layton set out criteria for getting his support on the budget.  So far so good.  That is what he is supposed to do as an oppostion leader and, to his credit, he has done a good job of bargaining in past budgets.

Then he has a complete brain fart and says publicly that because the Conservatives didnt give him everything he wanted he could not support the budget.  Continuing on the "take my ball home" theme this is the kind of lesson we teach two year olds.  But I suppose the NDP needs the lesson to be repeated.   Life is never an all or nothing proposition.  Compromise is necessary in life as it is in politics.  Layton would have got some of what he wanted but by forcing an election he will lose that leverage (perhaps permanently if the Cons win a majority).

That is bad politics no matter how you want to dress it up. 
I want you to panic

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2019/jan/25/i-want-you-to-panic-16-year-old-greta-thunberg-issues-climate-warning-at-davos-video

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

Jacob

I guess Layton lost your vote with that maneouvre. Real pity that, with the NDP being so competitive in North Vancouver.

Monoriu

When I was in Canada, none of the Chinese that I knew personally ever mentioned Canadian politics.  All this talk seem so...alien to me. 

Grey Fox

Quote from: crazy canuck on March 23, 2011, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: Josephus on March 23, 2011, 07:23:23 PM
Say you and I are leaders of political parties. Say you lead party A and I lead Party B. Our parties have very little in common. WE are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I like squares, you like circles.  Now you say you are going to table a budget and you want my support. I say, "I doubt that can happen but look, if you throw in A, B and C, maybe I will."

Instead lets deal with what really happened.

Months ago Layton set out criteria for getting his support on the budget.  So far so good.  That is what he is supposed to do as an oppostion leader and, to his credit, he has done a good job of bargaining in past budgets.

Then he has a complete brain fart and says publicly that because the Conservatives didnt give him everything he wanted he could not support the budget.  Continuing on the "take my ball home" theme this is the kind of lesson we teach two year olds.  But I suppose the NDP needs the lesson to be repeated.   Life is never an all or nothing proposition.  Compromise is necessary in life as it is in politics.  Layton would have got some of what he wanted but by forcing an election he will lose that leverage (perhaps permanently if the Cons win a majority).

That is bad politics no matter how you want to dress it up.

Why do you pin this on Layton? The Libs & BQ could have not taken the chicken route either but they did, faster then Layton so he's responsible?
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Neil

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 24, 2011, 05:55:43 AM
Why do you pin this on Layton? The Libs & BQ could have not taken the chicken route either but they did, faster then Layton so he's responsible?
Layton has more to lose than the other two parties.  The Libs and BQ have hopes of gains in an election.  For the NDP, there is only destruction.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Josephus

In any case this might be all moot, since the gov't may be brought down on the contempt of parliament ruling instead of the budget.
Civis Romanus Sum

"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

Grey Fox

But that's not different from any previous election. The NDP always faces destruction.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Malthus

Quote from: Jacob on March 23, 2011, 07:14:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2011, 06:30:14 PMTell me more about "streamlining immigration". This hasn't pinged my radar yet - what measures have they taken?

They've done some shuffling of bureaucratic functions and have re-allocated immigrationvisas amongst the different categories. It's not particularly high profile, but the upshot is nonetheless significant for the people affected.

We've started the process to have my in-laws immigrate to Canada. Previously, the expected processing time was about six years (most of which is the application lying in a pile waiting to be looked at). With the recent changes under the Harper Government, the expected processing time is now 13 years.

I would like the kids we're having to grow up with their grandparents around, but this "streamlining" (which as I understand it is just "all the resources for people with lots of money who want to immigrate, none for anyone else") prevents that.

Heh, my Ukrainian in-laws don't seem to suffer from this - mainly I think because they simply cheat, and get away with it. My brother-in-law's wife's dad in here right now on a 6 months visitor's visa that has so far lasted six years.

I guess they have lots of practice in cheating obstructive bureaucracy back home in Ukraine.  :D
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Malthus

Quote from: Jacob on March 23, 2011, 07:18:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2011, 07:01:38 PM
Like a day trip?  :huh:

I figured from the ad he might have done a six month stretch at some comfy think tank.

Nah, he was an academic in the US for years. You know, he had some career and academic success and went to where the best opportunities were. According to the attack ad, that makes him suspect.

The better basis for an attack ad is that he was "parachuted" into his riding (my riding) against the wishes of the local liberals, because it was a thorougly "safe" liveral riding, and basically has done nothing for it - it was simply a ploy put on by the party to get a leader they thought would lend them gravitas.

Unfortunately, importing a leading academic did not imbue him with charisma, leadership qualities or a coherent political strategy or vision.

Not that the other parties don't pull such stunts of course, but this was a particularly egregious example.

The attack ad the cons mounted was, as you say, an exercise in lameness. The fact that it is everywhere just multiplies that lameness.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Neil

Quote from: Grey Fox on March 24, 2011, 07:14:33 AM
But that's not different from any previous election. The NDP always faces destruction.
Last election, with Dion as Liberal leader, they were poised to make great gains, and they did.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Neil

Quote from: Malthus on March 24, 2011, 07:47:42 AM
The better basis for an attack ad is that he was "parachuted" into his riding (my riding) against the wishes of the local liberals, because it was a thorougly "safe" liveral riding, and basically has done nothing for it - it was simply a ploy put on by the party to get a leader they thought would lend them gravitas.

Unfortunately, importing a leading academic did not imbue him with charisma, leadership qualities or a coherent political strategy or vision.

Not that the other parties don't pull such stunts of course, but this was a particularly egregious example.

The attack ad the cons mounted was, as you say, an exercise in lameness. The fact that it is everywhere just multiplies that lameness.
Do you think that the average voter can be wooed with appeals to democracy?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Malthus

Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2011, 07:51:14 AM
Do you think that the average voter can be wooed with appeals to democracy?

I dunno, but it has got to be better than "Iggy worked outside the country!!!" or "Harper looks like a meanie in a sweater!!!".  ;)
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Neil

Quote from: Malthus on March 24, 2011, 07:52:55 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 24, 2011, 07:51:14 AM
Do you think that the average voter can be wooed with appeals to democracy?
I dunno, but it has got to be better than "Iggy worked outside the country!!!" or "Harper looks like a meanie in a sweater!!!".  ;)
You're not the target of TV ads though.  TV ads exist because the average voter doesn't really know anything or care much about politics, so all you can use in them is personality issues and scare tactics.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Camerus

Quote from: Josephus on March 23, 2011, 09:42:29 AM
Because Harper is so full of principles.

Well, it's not that Iggy is unprincipled as an individual, but rather that he and his party lack any coherent vision or party principles that I can ascertain.  What do the Liberals stand for these days, really?  Outside of a strong federal system, it's difficult to say. 

To my mind, the only reason to vote for them right now is that "they aren't the Conservatives", and because the Conservatives are still a legitimate option (recent black eyes notwithstanding), that just isn't a good enough reason to vote Grit.


Camerus

Quote from: Jacob on March 23, 2011, 07:14:41 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2011, 06:30:14 PMTell me more about "streamlining immigration". This hasn't pinged my radar yet - what measures have they taken?

They've done some shuffling of bureaucratic functions and have re-allocated immigrationvisas amongst the different categories. It's not particularly high profile, but the upshot is nonetheless significant for the people affected.

We've started the process to have my in-laws immigrate to Canada. Previously, the expected processing time was about six years (most of which is the application lying in a pile waiting to be looked at). With the recent changes under the Harper Government, the expected processing time is now 13 years.

I would like the kids we're having to grow up with their grandparents around, but this "streamlining" (which as I understand it is just "all the resources for people with lots of money who want to immigrate, none for anyone else") prevents that.

13 years for legal immigration?  That just opens the door for illegality and gaming the system, like Malthus' Ukrainian in-laws.

I wonder what the official Conservative explanation and rationale for the policy changes are?