[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

I think the challenge is that the specific acts of influence are often hard to document until after the fact, and that some of the influence actions overlap with benign parts of our democratic process. I think it's going to be challenging to sort out black-on-white (except as political talking points when convenient), and a challenge to root out. But it's definitely worth being on top of as much as possible.

So ethnic politics have been a thing in Canada forever.  It's particularly so in party constituency nominations, where relatively frw people can swing the election.

So yes - if you're say a Chinese-Canadian (and this isn't just about China), it's pretty common to go to Chinese cultural events, drum up support from other Chinese-Canadians to get them to join your party and vote for you in the nomination.

The concerning thing here is the allegation that MPs worked not just with the community, but with foreign intelligence officials - with an aim to promote that foreign country's policy goals within Canada.  But so few details are being provided.

[Grey Fox]

And to Reiterate, the pandemic is not over. 

How will it stop being a pandemic for you?

According to the authors of this paper :

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1600-0498.12370

"Epidemics end once the diseases become accepted into people's daily lives and routines, becoming endemic—domesticated—and accepted."

We're pretty much there and have been for some time.

Why do you think this is personal to me?  Our public health officials say it is so.

Have we all bought into right wing misinformation campaigns to the extent that they are now "liars" who can be disregarded?

If you are reading BB's posts the answer is yes.  But as once again ask you all to get your information from somewhere other than social media.

Nowadays my COVID info comes from here.

Your public official is Bonnie GreenHenry. Noted anti-masker.

[Sheilbh]

Also, I do think we have progressed a bit in the domain of work from home if you're feeling a bit sick whilst in Japan it was come into the office even if you're dying. And environments where that isn't an option are sadly more likely to have the anti mask nonsense.
I wonder whether any bosses are actively banning it as detracting form uniform?

I went into the office feeling a bit unwell a couple of months ago. The area I normally work in was full so I sat in the HR bit a few desks down from the head of HR.

As the day went on I started to feel dreadful - sniffly, sneezing etc.

The next day the entire company got an email from the head of HR telling people to PLEASE stay home if they feel unwell

Edit: But yeah - it's a definite shift from pre-covid.

[Jacob]

So ethnic politics have been a thing in Canada forever.  It's particularly so in party constituency nominations, where relatively frw people can swing the election.

So yes - if you're say a Chinese-Canadian (and this isn't just about China), it's pretty common to go to Chinese cultural events, drum up support from other Chinese-Canadians to get them to join your party and vote for you in the nomination.

The concerning thing here is the allegation that MPs worked not just with the community, but with foreign intelligence officials - with an aim to promote that foreign country's policy goals within Canada.  But so few details are being provided.

Yeah, so what I'm getting at is that these foreign intelligence officials have cultivated relationships with sympathetic and influential individuals within their relevant communities - for ideological, prestige, or business reasons. And those influential individuals have access to their own networks, and that those networks often overlap with those that express the genuine concerns of the local community.

I expect that when the foreign intelligence agents influence politics it's along the lines of "local group of activists endorse candidate for legitimate seeming reason, boosting their chance of winning"; they do this because they follow the endorsement of local influential community members; those local influential community members are also doing business with a few other community members who are part of a non-governmental organization promoting cultural ties; which is in turn fronted by someone getting access to better government contracts back in the old country because they listen to the endorsement of the local foreign agent who picked the endorsed MP candidate over their less desirable candidate.

Basically, I think there are often enough layers of ignorance and plausible deniability (and sometimes these connections are opaque to members outside of the community) that the person serving foreign interests may not even be aware that they are; but that doesn't make the influence less pernicious.

If some MP - or aspiring MP - sat down with a foreign intelligence official and engaged in some sort of quid pro quo, it'd be quite simple - and I think we'd hear about it and the RCMP would prosecute and all that.

I just don't expect that's how our politicians are being compromised. I think the process is greasier, more opaque, and easier to be ignorant about when it's happening (whether willfully or innocently).

On top of that, someone can genuinely believe that encouraging trade with Beijing/New Delhi is better than focusing on human rights. and therefore be a better candidate from the POV of the Chinese/Indian foreign agent. The candidate (or their staff) may or may not know that they are getting support mobilized because of that, but it doesn't mean the influence isn't there and undermining our institutions. And conversely the more regime-critical opponent may well know that they are having a harder time because they're being regime critical, and that can have a chilling effect.

[Jacob]

Nowadays my COVID info comes from here.

Your public official is Bonnie Green. Noted anti-masker.

You mean Dr. Bonnie Henry?

[Jacob]

Incidentally, there's a similar story current in Denmark but featuring Russian influence. I expect it's the same in much of Europe.

I realize it's a bit of a grey area and that maybe the public isn't supposed to know, but I'm curious what we are doing in the West to harden ourselves against influence operations like that? And whether we are doing anything similar in attempting to influence Russia and China (and other non-democratic regimes)?

[Grey Fox]

Nowadays my COVID info comes from here.

Your public official is Bonnie Green. Noted anti-masker.

You mean Dr. Bonnie Henry?

  yes.

[crazy canuck]

So my expectation is that the situation is mostly something like this:

• An important facet of retail politics is getting various community groups in your riding to line up for you: to provide volunteers, to put on events, to help fundraising.
• If your riding includes reasonably sized minority groups they will have a significant number of community groups around. These business and social networks, cultural organization, and so on are typically worthwhile for politicians to interact with (and generally, IMO, an important component of integration and democracy).
• At the same time, those groups also have connections back to "the old country." Often they have connections with embassies and consulates, via honorary consuls and others.
• Some countries (I know China and Russia for sure, probably India and likely several others) have groups (government, quasi-government, or theoretically non-government) dedicated to influence their diasporas, and thereby the political process.
• However, that influence is often very back-room deal, word of mouth, obscure funding-type. Sometimes it involves legitimate business and cultural exchanges, sometimes that's merely a cover.

I think the challenge is that the specific acts of influence are often hard to document until after the fact, and that some of the influence actions overlap with benign parts of our democratic process. I think it's going to be challenging to sort out black-on-white (except as political talking points when convenient), and a challenge to root out. But it's definitely worth being on top of as much as possible.

Based on what?

Read the reporting (from actual newspapers). It is not as innocuous as you are suggesting.

Sorry for again insisting again that people base their opinions on facts. 

[Jacob]

Its my best guess based on what I've read over the years in papers, magazines, and social media of people involved in the day-to-day of ethnic politics.

There's also been a number of recent accounts in the media of how Russia conducts their influence operations in Europe. I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to assume some of their methodologies are broadly similar.

I'll note that I don't think the situation is innocuous at all. I think there is real damage and real risk, but that this sort of thing very much operates along a slippery slope.

You are of course free to disregard, ignore, or counter my speculation as you please.

One of the things I personally enjoy about languish is discussing hypotheses, analysis, and speculation - and facts - with people whose insight I respect.

I'd be curious to hear your analysis based the facts you have.

[crazy canuck]

An opinion piece by Coyne regarding some are downplaying having traitors in our Parliament

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/gift/519974dc5e28f762a87fb14c1570523f4fb873adfcfcb945043907ccc3c41650/AIZVQANRQJGO3NW3BIS43334NY/

[crazy canuck]

Its my best guess based on what I've read over the years in papers, magazines, and social media of people involved in the day-to-day of ethnic politics.

There's also been a number of recent accounts in the media of how Russia conducts their influence operations in Europe. I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to assume some of their methodologies are broadly similar.

I'll note that I don't think the situation is innocuous at all. I think there is real damage and real risk, but that this sort of thing very much operates along a slippery slope.

You are of course free to disregard, ignore, or counter my speculation as you please.

One of the things I personally enjoy about languish is discussing hypotheses, analysis, and speculation - and facts - with people whose insight I respect.

I'd be curious to hear your analysis based the facts you have.

Why do you think the in the operations of the Indian or Chinese would have any similarities to Russia?

But more to the point why don't you just read what is actually happening (in real news sources) rather than base your opinion what you have read in the past about other events that may or may not be analogous or worse, what you are picking up on social media.

[crazy canuck]

So my expectation is that the situation is mostly something like this:

• An important facet of retail politics is getting various community groups in your riding to line up for you: to provide volunteers, to put on events, to help fundraising.
• If your riding includes reasonably sized minority groups they will have a significant number of community groups around. These business and social networks, cultural organization, and so on are typically worthwhile for politicians to interact with (and generally, IMO, an important component of integration and democracy).
• At the same time, those groups also have connections back to "the old country." Often they have connections with embassies and consulates, via honorary consuls and others.
• Some countries (I know China and Russia for sure, probably India and likely several others) have groups (government, quasi-government, or theoretically non-government) dedicated to influence their diasporas, and thereby the political process.
• However, that influence is often very back-room deal, word of mouth, obscure funding-type. Sometimes it involves legitimate business and cultural exchanges, sometimes that's merely a cover.

I think the challenge is that the specific acts of influence are often hard to document until after the fact, and that some of the influence actions overlap with benign parts of our democratic process. I think it's going to be challenging to sort out black-on-white (except as political talking points when convenient), and a challenge to root out. But it's definitely worth being on top of as much as possible.

To be clear in this post you said it would be hard to document specific acts.  But that is exactly what has now happened.

You are making claims and arguments seemingly oblivious to what is actually occurring.

[Jacob]

To be clear in this post you said it would be hard to document specific acts.  But that is exactly what has now happened.

Yes. Fair enough. I look forward to learning more of the details in due time.

[Jacob]

An opinion piece by Coyne regarding some are downplaying having traitors in our Parliament

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/gift/519974dc5e28f762a87fb14c1570523f4fb873adfcfcb945043907ccc3c41650/AIZVQANRQJGO3NW3BIS43334NY/

Thanks for sharing that. I agree with Prof. Wark that it potentially rises to treason, and that it is serious.

I don't think much of the rest of Coyne's opinion.

[Barrister]

The problem is so little has been released.  It sounds like this is maybe, probably, hugely important - but nobody will give further details.  Which in part is fair (intelligence!), but also kind of feels like it's being covered up.

And probably MPs from multiple parties are implicated.