[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

BB, do you think pronouns are so important as to create that kind of legislative exception?

It's a little more than pronouns here.

We're talking about using a completely different name, and to the extreme, going by a different gender.

Parent's acceptance is a different matter and shouldn't matter in directly in the school decision, imho.

Look, if the kid strongly oppose the parents being told, and gives serious reasons, I'd be incline to err on the side of caution and not tell the parents.

But unless the kid expressly tells the schools in writing he/she/they forbid the school to communicate anything to the parents with a serious reason, they have the right to know their kid has changed name.

If the kid was suffering from any trauma at school, the school's duty would be to tell the parents.

[crazy canuck]

BB, do you think pronouns are so important as to create that kind of legislative exception?

It's a little more than pronouns here.

We're talking about using a completely different name, and to the extreme, going by a different gender.

Parent's acceptance is a different matter and shouldn't matter in directly in the school decision, imho.

Look, if the kid strongly oppose the parents being told, and gives serious reasons, I'd be incline to err on the side of caution and not tell the parents.

But unless the kid expressly tells the schools in writing he/she/they forbid the school to communicate anything to the parents with a serious reason, they have the right to know their kid has changed name.

If the kid was suffering from any trauma at school, the school's duty would be to tell the parents.

I did not gather that from the article. And looking at the legislation itself, it appears to be about pronouns.

[viper37]

I did not gather that from the article. And looking at the legislation itself, it appears to be about pronouns.

I did not read the legislation itself and I had a casual following.  I was misinformed then.

Allright.  Does not seem that bad.

[Josephus]

In other news, the Toronto Star owner, Nordstar, is in talks to merge with Postmedia, owner of the National Post:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/toronto-star-nordstar-talks-merger-postmedia-1.6890659

So, Globe & Mail and National Post for English Canada, that's it?

I don't think The Star is going anywhere.

[Josephus]

Here's the thing:

We require kids to get parental consent to do just about everything. My great niece the other day said she can't wait until she's 16 to get a tattoo without her parent's consent. I'm looking here at laws in B.C., only because it was the first to come up in a Google search: I think you have to be 19 to get married without a parent's permission. You have to be 19 to get a driver's license without consent, and leave home without consent. 19 to change your name.

http://legalrightsforyouth.ca/age-based-legal-rights

I believe in Ontario you can leave home at 16. In Ontario you can't have an abortion at under 16 without parental consent.

There's probably other things I'm not thinking of.

So, in my opinion, it makes no sense that one can make a gender based decision without parental consent.

That said, it's not always black and white, I know, and in some instances it's the parents who encourage their kids to come out as trans. "Oh look, little Billy likes wearing his sister's dresses, he must be trans, let's start calling him Sally and put him on puberty blockers off as soon as possible."

I've read many opinions by gay rights people who are very much against puberty blockers and other things that encourage minors to change gender. Whilst this is different than what we are talking about, I guess the bigger issue is "does a nine year old understand that playing with dolls or wearing his sister's dresses does not mean he is a girl."

I think waiting until the child is 16, and maybe after talking with a qualified professional, is the best course of action.

But I don't know.

I'm not a parent, but I think that if I had a nine year old son who said he wants to be called Loretta and wear a dress, I think I might suggest he waits a while longer, while, maybe, not discouraging some sort of cosplaying at home. I probably would be pissed if he comes home one day with a report card calling him Loretta.

[Sheilbh]

The flipside is I'd be surprised if you required parental consent to access contraception or abortions or STI testing etc (although some of the products may, strictly, only be available for sale to over-16s). Obviously kids also have the same rights to patient confidentiality and ability to consent to medical treatment, particularly if they're considered "Gillick competent" which is from a UK case, but I believe is something Canada has adopted and adapted. I think client confidentiality from a lawyer would also apply to under 16s.

[Josephus]

Client confidentiality maybe, but does a child need consent to get a lawyer, assuming they have the money? BB? CC?

[garbon]

I'm not a parent, but I think that if I had a nine year old son who said he wants to be called Loretta and wear a dress, I think I might suggest he waits a while longer, while, maybe, not discouraging some sort of cosplaying at home. I probably would be pissed if he comes home one day with a report card calling him Loretta.

Why should he wait? Parental comfort?

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - no idea. My guess would be that they can if it's in the child's best interests and those interests (including as a client) don't necessarily align wit their parents' (or guardians') interests. It definitely comes up in family law cases where one of the things the courts have to try and work out is what's in the child's best interests - which includes their wishes but that can be difficult to understand if the child isn't treated as a separate individual whose own voice needs hearing in its own right.

It's why I keep going back to that idea of the best interests of the child. I don't think there is a dogmatic answer to this one way or the other and instead require flexibility under a legal principle (rather than obligation/prohibition) to cover different circumstances.

[Grey Fox]

I think it is a provincial rule. In Quebec, starting at 14 years old a child can make their own medical decisions. I think that's why anything to do with Transgenderism is frame has a medical situation here.

From what I've seen of Quebec's anglophone community, Anglophones take a more interest approach in their kids schooling than what us francophone do and I'm guessing that excluding anything to do with Gender probably ruffled a lot of feathers. Explains the push back imo.

[Josephus]

I'm not a parent, but I think that if I had a nine year old son who said he wants to be called Loretta and wear a dress, I think I might suggest he waits a while longer, while, maybe, not discouraging some sort of cosplaying at home. I probably would be pissed if he comes home one day with a report card calling him Loretta.

Why should he wait? Parental comfort?

Because he might grow up and realize that he was too young to make a life-chainging decision, and really he was just gay and the school guidance counsellor was just woke and made a wrong call.

[crazy canuck]

Here's the thing:

We require kids to get parental consent to do just about everything. My great niece the other day said she can't wait until she's 16 to get a tattoo without her parent's consent. I'm looking here at laws in B.C., only because it was the first to come up in a Google search: I think you have to be 19 to get married without a parent's permission. You have to be 19 to get a driver's license without consent, and leave home without consent. 19 to change your name.

http://legalrightsforyouth.ca/age-based-legal-rights

I believe in Ontario you can leave home at 16. In Ontario you can't have an abortion at under 16 without parental consent.

There's probably other things I'm not thinking of.

So, in my opinion, it makes no sense that one can make a gender based decision without parental consent.

That said, it's not always black and white, I know, and in some instances it's the parents who encourage their kids to come out as trans. "Oh look, little Billy likes wearing his sister's dresses, he must be trans, let's start calling him Sally and put him on puberty blockers off as soon as possible."

I've read many opinions by gay rights people who are very much against puberty blockers and other things that encourage minors to change gender. Whilst this is different than what we are talking about, I guess the bigger issue is "does a nine year old understand that playing with dolls or wearing his sister's dresses does not mean he is a girl."

I think waiting until the child is 16, and maybe after talking with a qualified professional, is the best course of action.

But I don't know.

I'm not a parent, but I think that if I had a nine year old son who said he wants to be called Loretta and wear a dress, I think I might suggest he waits a while longer, while, maybe, not discouraging some sort of cosplaying at home. I probably would be pissed if he comes home one day with a report card calling him Loretta.

The examples you have referred to are part of consumer protection legislation - in this case protecting minors.  It also has to do with the fact that minors have no legal capacity to enter into contracts.  And so, as a practical matter private sector actors get the parents to enter into the contract on behalf of the minor.  But it is then the parents on the hook, not the minor.

I am sure we can all agree that consumer protection, and especially for minors, is a good thing.  But it is not such a great analogy for schools.  The reason is that schools take on the legal responsibility of being a guardian when a child enters the school ground.  Schools don't need consent from parents.  As a side note, parents will often see things that are labelled as a consent form for things like school trips etc.  But they are really waiver forms.  Schools could take kids on field trips without consent. 

Getting a little deeper into the legal weeds, the consent/waiver forms are largely ineffective because a parent cannot waive the right of a minor to sue for negligence.  The parent is only signing away their own right to sue.

[crazy canuck]

I'm not a parent, but I think that if I had a nine year old son who said he wants to be called Loretta and wear a dress, I think I might suggest he waits a while longer, while, maybe, not discouraging some sort of cosplaying at home. I probably would be pissed if he comes home one day with a report card calling him Loretta.

Why should he wait? Parental comfort?

Because he might grow up and realize that he was too young to make a life-chainging decision, and really he was just gay and the school guidance counsellor was just woke and made a wrong call.

What call do you think school guidance counsellors are making?

[garbon]

I'm not a parent, but I think that if I had a nine year old son who said he wants to be called Loretta and wear a dress, I think I might suggest he waits a while longer, while, maybe, not discouraging some sort of cosplaying at home. I probably would be pissed if he comes home one day with a report card calling him Loretta.

Why should he wait? Parental comfort?

Because he might grow up and realize that he was too young to make a life-chainging decision, and really he was just gay and the school guidance counsellor was just woke and made a wrong call.

Are you talking about hormones and gender affirming surgery?

If we stick to example of son who decides to use a female name and where traditional female clothing, well that's just another form of experimentation that children often do. Not exactly traumatizing to learn you ultimately don't identify as female. But better to experiment than remain in doubt.

[Jacob]

Keep in mind here, the actual topic under contention is whether the school can use a different name or pronouns because the child asks for it, without parental consent. They're not involved in any kind of medical decision-making whatsoever.

No zealous guidance counsellors is going to put Josephus' nephew on hormone treatment without parental involvement.