[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Malthus]

Latest polls seems to point toward a Liberal's defeat.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Also a Conservative majority. Unfortunately, I've seen nothing from the current Conservatives that makes this joyful news.

What it would take for you to see the Conservatives as "joyful" is what would cause untold others to flee to other parties.

Perhaps.

My main beef with the current Conservatives is that they have little to say about environmental matters, which I view as a priority. They have yet to reveal any climate change plan at all (they have pledged to do so at some point before the election) other than to criticize the Liberal carbon tax.

Is there any issue on which they are distinguished from the Liberals in a positive way?

The main beef with the Liberals is their ham-fistedness - SNC-Lavalin and this latest business with the Indigenous missing women enquiry stand out (indeed, I could almost feel sorry for Trudeau, having his hand thoroughly bitten in that affair - him having to stand up and admit he's a "genocidal" leader, or lose all credit on the left by pointing out his own enquiry has gone badly off the rails, is surely something the Conservatives must have had a good laugh about). 

[HVC]

The CP shedding it's alt-right to, let's say the CPP, would actually be a great thing for Canada.

Splitting the right has never proven to be a winning electoral strategy.

Alt-right types should be seen and not heard as part of the overall Conservative coalition.

its the abyss. if you stare into it long enough it stares back. look south of the border

[crazy canuck]

The CP shedding it's alt-right to, let's say the CPP, would actually be a great thing for Canada.

Splitting the right has never proven to be a winning electoral strategy.

Alt-right types should be seen and not heard as part of the overall Conservative coalition.

its the abyss. if you stare into it long enough it stares back. look south of the border

Or the Conservatives in Britain.  Putting up with that element is not harmless.  Plus it puts off people who might otherwise support the party.

[Barrister]

Latest polls seems to point toward a Liberal's defeat.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Also a Conservative majority. Unfortunately, I've seen nothing from the current Conservatives that makes this joyful news.

What it would take for you to see the Conservatives as "joyful" is what would cause untold others to flee to other parties.

Perhaps.

My main beef with the current Conservatives is that they have little to say about environmental matters, which I view as a priority. They have yet to reveal any climate change plan at all (they have pledged to do so at some point before the election) other than to criticize the Liberal carbon tax.

Is there any issue on which they are distinguished from the Liberals in a positive way?

The main beef with the Liberals is their ham-fistedness - SNC-Lavalin and this latest business with the Indigenous missing women enquiry stand out (indeed, I could almost feel sorry for Trudeau, having his hand thoroughly bitten in that affair - him having to stand up and admit he's a "genocidal" leader, or lose all credit on the left by pointing out his own enquiry has gone badly off the rails, is surely something the Conservatives must have had a good laugh about).

I dunno - "not being in bed with corrupt businesses" is a good differentiator, I think.  Thats one thing that has long been true about the party - they get far more donations from individuals and therefore don't have to rely on large corporations (like SNC Lavalin).

We'll see on his environmental strategy.  I hope he does have a meaningful one too.

[Barrister]

Or the Conservatives in Britain.  Putting up with that element is not harmless.  Plus it puts off people who might otherwise support the party.

Exactly.  Lets look at the Conservatives.  Now with the party split and the Brexit Party leading the polls they could be finished.

Look - running an ideological "big tent" party is not easy, and you'll often share it with elements you don't always see eye to eye with.  But it's essential to winning.

[crazy canuck]

Or the Conservatives in Britain.  Putting up with that element is not harmless.  Plus it puts off people who might otherwise support the party.

Exactly.  Lets look at the Conservatives.  Now with the party split and the Brexit Party leading the polls they could be finished.

Look - running an ideological "big tent" party is not easy, and you'll often share it with elements you don't always see eye to eye with.  But it's essential to winning.

The party split because it put up with idiots in their midst for far too long.  Cameron was a coward and did not deal with them head on.  Instead he went all passive aggressive and called the referendum.

[Malthus]

I dunno - "not being in bed with corrupt businesses" is a good differentiator, I think.  Thats one thing that has long been true about the party - they get far more donations from individuals and therefore don't have to rely on large corporations (like SNC Lavalin).

We'll see on his environmental strategy.  I hope he does have a meaningful one too.

It is true the Liberals have their problems, as with the SNC-Lavalin affair, but I was asking more about policies.

[Barrister]

I dunno - "not being in bed with corrupt businesses" is a good differentiator, I think.  Thats one thing that has long been true about the party - they get far more donations from individuals and therefore don't have to rely on large corporations (like SNC Lavalin).

We'll see on his environmental strategy.  I hope he does have a meaningful one too.

It is true the Liberals have their problems, as with the SNC-Lavalin affair, but I was asking more about policies.

Well, the biggest difference is going to be on spending: Conservatives promise to balance the books within 5 years, Liberals have no real plan to do so.

Then there will be stylistic changes - virtue-signalling, if you're into that.

[crazy canuck]

I dunno - "not being in bed with corrupt businesses" is a good differentiator, I think.  Thats one thing that has long been true about the party - they get far more donations from individuals and therefore don't have to rely on large corporations (like SNC Lavalin).

We'll see on his environmental strategy.  I hope he does have a meaningful one too.

It is true the Liberals have their problems, as with the SNC-Lavalin affair, but I was asking more about policies.

Well, the biggest difference is going to be on spending: Conservatives promise to balance the books within 5 years, Liberals have no real plan to do so.

Then there will be stylistic changes - virtue-signalling, if you're into that.

That is the biggest difference for someone already committed to the Conservatives.  From the perspective of a non affiliated voter, the biggest and most significant issue is related to the environment.

[Oexmelin]

Look - running an ideological "big tent" party is not easy, and you'll often share it with elements you don't always see eye to eye with.  But it's essential to winning.

Up to which point? At which point does the need for winning trump principles? What is your personal limit? What are you willing to tolerate within your party?

Maybe we have a different working definition of "alt-right", but there are a lot of crypto-fascists, antisemites, islamophobes, misogynists and authoritarian types in that group. 

[Barrister]

Interesting little story.  A group calling themselves Engage Canada ran an attack ad during the Raptors game last night against Andrew Scheer.  It probably cost $50,000 for that one 30 second spot.

Engage Canada doesn't have to list its donors as long as they don't advertise during the writ period - which they say they won't.  It's suspected to be a front for labour unions however.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/who-s-behind-the-anti-andrew-scheer-ad-airing-during-raptors-game-1.4460332?fbclid=IwAR1wdeTNp7bsIvz1uABXoYUyjRYk4SNVVZ-dGYa5djl6DJSCapqEY0B793Q

[crazy canuck]

I saw the engage add a few times during the game.  There was also a Unifor add that had essentially the same message.

Better than the Conservative robocalls 

[viper37]

The CP shedding it's alt-right to, let's say the CPP, would actually be a great thing for Canada.

Splitting the right has never proven to be a winning electoral strategy.

Alt-right types should be seen and not heard as part of the overall Conservative coalition.

Like the Alt-Left should be seen and not heard as part of the overall Liberal coallition?
I'm not sure.

I can see both sides of the pictures here.

On the one hand, keep your friends close, your ennemies closer.  Think Versailles.  No more rebellious nobles after that, too busy playing sycophant to the King.  That's one way.

The other way, in a democracy, is that your opponent will always try to use these Alt-types as the defining characteristic of your party.  That why enviro-freaks join the Green and Communists join the NDP, the Liberal party is pretty good at avoiding public discontentment within its ranks, usually.  Knives are planted in each other's back the old Preatorian guard ways, I guess, in the quietness of the night

If the Conservatives keep the anti-abortion, anti climate change people, they always keep the risk of being defined by their fringes, not the mainstream party.

[viper37]

Is there any issue on which they are distinguished from the Liberals in a positive way?

A lot.
Honesty.  Say what you will, but you got the straight dope with Harper.  Robocalls aside...There was no hidden agenda, everything was in plain sight.
Deficit control.  A cabinet minister was demoted for a 8$ orange juice...  Did we apply the same standards to Liberal cabinet ministers?   Increasing deficits is what they do best, by any which way possible.

Integrity.  Honestly, did you hear widespread corruption scandal or illegal financing from the Conservatives' side?  Nope.

Respect of the Provinces. Key element there, compared to the Liberals.  Province ask something, Lib gov says no withouth even finishing to hear the sentence.  They drag their feet on everything they promised.  With the Conservatives, we saw the end of fiscal imbalance, we had huge public investment programs that some cities tried to coerce for professional sport venues *cough Quebec city cough*, but overall, the money was there for public transit.  With the Libs, it's mostly promises, no real money involved.

The Conservatives said Kyoto was unreachable and didn't even try to achieve the objectives.  That was bad.  The Liberals said the Conservatives target were too timid and ridiculed them.  They didn't even try to do better.  That was worst.
In a lot of ways, I think the Conservative are better than the Liberals.
On the environmental issue alone, I think they are equal. The Libs are all talk and no play, the Cons don't even talk about it, but will reluctanctly play the puck once they have it.

On the general scientific level though, I will have to admit the Liberals are a tad better than the Conservatives were.  Scientists aren't muzzled, though their financing is still inadequate.  I fear with a Scheer govt, canadian scientists could face some kind of Trump/Harper stance on science where as you can't contradict the official party doctrine.  And that is bad for business.
Abortion is a non issue.  Some back bencher will bring forward a bill to restrict abortion, it will be squashed by the govt before the 1st reading and we won't hear about it for another 8 years.

While I find late term abortion to be distateful and non ethical, a sentiment felt by most abortion clinics, I have recently learnt that these kind of abortions are performed in the US since no clinics or hospitals in Quebec will do it, when the life of the foetus or the mother is not in danger...  Maybe we should legiferate on this, maybe we shouldn't, I don't know...  I'm not sure anymore...  I'm afraid to open Pandora's box if we go that way.

[viper37]

The Blood tribe reservation of Alberta has just been increased by 400km2 in Federal court.
https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/2019/06/12/big-land-claim-battle-in-federal-court-won-by-the-blood-tribe/

I wonder if Trudeau will appeal on that one...