Crusader Kings 2 Redux

[Barrister]

I think this easily qualifies for the best Paradox design (EU being a board game port).

I'm going to have to play for ore than 20 years before saying that.

I am curious about the long-term economical balance, seems a tad bit too easy atm. But that can be easily balanced.
I am very enthusiastic about this game.

That has been an issue for every single Paradox game though.  Once you get a feeling for the mechanics you can easily overwhelm AI opponents.  I suspect this will be the same.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The feudalism helps a lot here IMO. Everything is going well and then you suddenly die and your moronic heir, despised by his uncles, takes over. Also the characters are done in sufficient depth for a semi-roleplaying game to be possible, rather than going for world conquest; "my" Boleslaw, for example, was a great falconer, boozer and shagger of female courtiers 

[The Minsky Moment]

The feudalism helps a lot here IMO. Everything is going well and then you suddenly die and your moronic heir, despised by his uncles, takes over.

Maybe although the pre-release AARs suggest that blobbing may be an issue.

Part of the problem may be there are too many mechanisms in place for improving feudal relations - a big suite of non-landed title grants, the feast-hunt-etc actions, council missions, marrying high diplo spouses, picking guardians and probably others I am missing.

[Drakken]

The ambition/plot system is a great mechanic in theory, but as already pointed out here, it is half-baked right now.  There isn't enough variation in plots and there is far too much emphasis on assassination plots.  Every year of the game is like an I Claudius episode but with a thousand mini Livias scattered all over Europe.  I gather from the Johan comment the devs realize this and I hope it is an early priority.  I guess I wouldn't want the release to be held up for months just to deal with this, but it does really put a dent in enjoyment.

Yes, because life in the upper strata in the Middle Ages was peachy, with everyone nice and politely waiting their turn on their side. The Lion in Winter was closer to reality.

As I have said on the PI forum this feeling that wives are all little running sociopaths murdering husbands and babies left and right is hyperbolic bullshit and grossly exaggerated. I have seen brothers sending each other to Kingdom Come much more than wives, sisters, and daughters, but female characters are far from being passive in CK2.

[Drakken]

Part of the problem may be there are too many mechanisms in place for improving feudal relations - a big suite of non-landed title grants, the feast-hunt-etc actions, council missions, marrying high diplo spouses, picking guardians and probably others I am missing.

Let's say that in my current game as Denmark Svend the bastard-making five-time married pimp daddy the Cruel died from poison after genociding his rebellious sons; his murderous, Kinslayer son the Duke of Sveslig died in the first day of battle against his brother; this other brother died within years, and inbred minor buffoon was elected King, which is being pushed left and right by his sister the Duchess of Skâne by right of her mother the deceased Queen Mother. All of this within 50 years, and I'm using all these mechanisms and even more.

And not once, I have seen a wife committing murder. Daughters, once or twice to bump off a possible heir, until I changed the law to Agnatic Elective. Now all they want is get married and make babies.

Internal politics remains a tight rope to walk upon, because it takes a lot of positive modifiers to counter a few negative ones. People can hate your guts very fast. Let's say that these mechanisms barely suffice to do the job, and I am quite a competent CK player. Do the wrong moves and it can devolve into a Macedonian soap opera, even with a competent ruler. Having big Diplomacy ratings alone won't make your court the most peaceful of Europe.

I have my own reserves, but it is something that you can rest at peace about. The fact is that you will rarely, if never be loved by everyone that count, and those will find a way to get at you. That, and the absence of any possible Sheikdom of Breda make it, IMHO, a zillion notches over CK1 IMHO.

[The Minsky Moment]

Yes, because life in the upper strata in the Middle Ages was peachy, with everyone nice and politely waiting their turn on their side. The Lion in Winter was closer to reality.

I don't recall any assassinations occureding in Lion in Winter, unless you count the prison guards.
Medieval nobility was turbulent and prone to violence, but assassinations of senior nobility were not that common. 

As I have said on the PI forum this feeling that wives are all little running sociopaths murdering husbands and babies left and right is hyperbolic bullshit and grossly exaggerated. I have seen brothers sending each other to Kingdom Come much more than wives, sisters, and daughters, but female characters are far from being passive in CK2.

Ah - I think the "livia" comment may have thrown you off.  I wasn't being specific to women.  It is a problem for all characters of both genders.  My own character's plot choices consisted of 2 ambitions, and 5 different variations on bumping people off.  That's ridiculous.  Even Hollywood is more creative with plots.

The fact us that you will rarely, if never be loved by everyone that count, and those will find a way to get at you. That, and the absence of any possible Sheikdom of Breda make it, IMHO, a zillion notches over CK1 IMHO.

Easy there, killer.  You did see the part where I said "Best pdox design evah", no?

[crazy canuck]

Every year of the game is like an I Claudius episode but with a thousand mini Livias scattered all over Europe. 

It is this sort of turn of phrase that keeps me coming back to this place.

[Drakken]

I don't recall any assassinations occureding in Lion in Winter, unless you count the prison guards.
Medieval nobility was turbulent and prone to violence, but assassinations of senior nobility were not that common. 

Huh, there is one right up at the beginning. Little Johnny boy wasn't playing with his sword, I've always seen the sword-training scene as him trying to kill Henry under the guise of an accidental blow, because he was the obvious heir and favourite son. That is why he had a "Oh crap" face when Henry defeated him, certain he was seeing through his deceit.

Eleanor threatened Henry that she would send his sons to murder after his death any offspring he might have had by marrying Alais, even outright stating to his face that she would push them all through the nunnery door.

And in the end, Henry was within one hair to execute his three sons, one by one. He even formally promulgated their death sentence in front of Alais and Eleanor as witnesses. Did he really expect anyone to stop him and intervene?

[The Minsky Moment]

Huh, there is one right up at the beginning. Little Johnny boy wasn't playing with his sword, I've always seen this seen as him trying to kill him under the guise of training with swords, because he was the obvious heir.

And in the end, Henry was within one hair to execute his three sons, one by one. He even formally promulgated it in front of Alais and Eleanor as witness.

Yeah but it didn't happen because it was just dramatic license by the (20th century) playwright.

The real Richard, Geoff and John gave lots of goods reasons for people to off them but IRL died from the old fashioned "arrow in the eye", "falling off horse" and "made to seem ridiculous in Errol Flynn picture"

No poisoned chalices in the palaces.

[Drakken]

Yeah but it didn't happen because it was just dramatic license by the (20th century) playwright.

The real Richard, Geoff and John gave lots of goods reasons for people to off them but IRL died from the old fashioned "arrow in the eye", "falling off horse" and "made to seem ridiculous in Errol Flynn picture"

No poisoned chalices in the palaces.

Tell that to Arthur of Britanny, Geoffrey's son. We haven't still found his body nor his whereabouts, but it's obvious John had him murdered,  perhaps even drowned him himself if the rumor is true.

[crazy canuck]

No poisoned chalices in the palaces.

That was Danny Kaye iirc, not Flynn.

[Fireblade]

Richard III and his nephews.

LOL PLOT SUCCESSFUL I THREW THEM DOWN THE WELL

[The Minsky Moment]

That was Danny Kaye iirc, not Flynn.

I was going for as many references as possible in one post.

[The Minsky Moment]

Arthur was thrown in prison and died there (probably executed secretly) which is a different CK2 mechanism
Dickie 3 was after the time period and the fact that his action was considered so shocking raises doubts on the notion that assassination of noble children was commonplace.

The tit-for-tat murder of Louis of Orleans and Jean sans Peur qualify.  Certainly assassinations happened, but they were far from being the favorite parlour game of the medieval nobility.

[Josquius]

I've barely touched the demo so I wonder...how does titles in other kingdoms work?
i.e. can the king of England also be the Duke of Normandy without Normandy suddenly being part of England?