When Did the ME Go Wrong?

[Alexandru H.]

I'd say the whole Persian Renaissance starting with the Samanids is a proof that the Arab Empire was simply another conqueror of the area. We know very little about the cultural achievements of the last Sassanids but judging by the few clues, it must have seen as a beginning of a great age. No wonder most persian writers remembered that period as a golden age for Persia. I would add here the famous medical school, the jewish diaspora in Mesopotamia and the folklore that oozes from the work of Ferdowsi...

The Hispanic/Northern African cultural center did not appear out of nothing. Spain was already, under the late romans and vizigoths an early Christian cultural center (think Isidor of Sevilla) and I can't forget Carthage under Augustin. But if Spain can be explained by the use of the Ummayads (the same ones that managed to attract the Syrians on its side surely did the same with the hispanic elites), I really did not find a good explanation for Magreb. Not only it inspired countless religious movements, here were the best scholars of jurisprudence, here appeared the best philosopher of history, hell it even made way for Timbuktu and its weird position in the middle of nowhere.

Who knows? Maybe the muslim faith simply provided the lingua franca for so many great minds, something that the 400 year Sassanid-Roman wars were unable to provide.

[Barrister]

The ME went wrong with the Crusades and 19th-20th century imperialism.

I thought everyone knew that.   

[Queequeg]

The ME went wrong with the Crusades and 19th-20th century imperialism.

I thought everyone knew that.   

Sarcasm?

[Faeelin]

Of course having a leader (muhammed) who raped, pillaged, murdered, put people into slavery and was generally unsavoury and created a religo-political way of life based on these facts (as well as making it clear that the world must be conquered, muslims are superior and all the rest at best second class),

Of course, we know what the Israelite prophets did. I Hail Moses, slaughterer of First Born sons!

This post is frankly ridiculous. Tens of millions of people died within the last fifty years in China, but I don't see any posts here about the intrinsic failures of Chinese culture.

Why is that? Because China is reforming and economically developing, and so even the historiopgrahy of China has started to change, going from "Autocratic hermit empire" to "one end of a thriving global trade network."

I'm curious if you also see Nazism as the inevitable culmination of Charlemagne's decision to expand Eastward in the 8th century, setting in motion one of the cornerstones of Germany's heritage: the extermination of those it didn't consider civilized.

[Faeelin]

The Hispanic/Northern African cultural center did not appear out of nothing. Spain was already, under the late romans

I'm curious if you can cite any historical works, since the consensus AFAIk among academics is "Urban infrastructure decaying under the Visigoths, who treated Jews sufficiently poorly that they all flocked to the Arab invaders."

[Alexandru H.]

The Hispanic/Northern African cultural center did not appear out of nothing. Spain was already, under the late romans

I'm curious if you can cite any historical works, since the consensus AFAIk among academics is "Urban infrastructure decaying under the Visigoths, who treated Jews sufficiently poorly that they all flocked to the Arab invaders."

I did not mention jews  I'm part jewish but I don't know much about the jewish communities outside Mesopotamia during the 6th-8th centuries. Is the jewish community considered a founder of the "Andalusian" culture center or just one of its representatives? Because I always thought of them as being inspired by the Muslim scholars, not the other way around... at least until their breakthrough during the Taifas Kingdoms...

[Faeelin]

I guess my point isn't clear; you portray Visigothic Spain as place with a brilliant culture, which the Umayyads just got to claim credit for. The problem is that no historians I have ever come across think this was the case.

[Alexandru H.]

I've checked one of my books and the earliest representative of a true jewish intellectual in Hispania during the muslim rule is Samuel ibn Nagreka (993-1056).

I guess my point isn't clear; you portray Visigothic Spain as place with a brilliant culture, which the Umayyads just got to claim credit for. The problem is that no historians I have ever come across think this was the case.

Ah, no  . Isidor of Sevilla (I have a soft spot for him) was a Catholic, like all the other minds of that peninsula, therefore not very much loved by the arian Visigoths. What I said is that Spain wasn't some fringe ex-roman territory, it was perhaps, with Italy and Carthage, the intellectual pot of the Western Empire.

[Norgy]

Especially Christianity didn't have access to statepower for the first few centuries of its existence. It's initial leaders, the examples to be followed basically, are generally not warriors.

You are accepting the description of Jesus as nothing but a peaceful rabbi on blind faith here.

The fact that "Christianity" didn't have access to statepower does not mean it wasn't militant. The teachings of Christ were in fact both revolutionary and militant and absolutely at odds with the status quo, be it Roman occupation (or rule) of Judea or the power structure within judaism.

I think if you are going to use other sources than the Quran to prove Mohammed was worse than Hitler, it would serve you well to perhaps look beyond the Gospels when it comes to sources about Christianity. Just a tip.

[Siege]

The ME went wrong with the Crusades and 19th-20th century imperialism.

I thought everyone knew that.   

Sure. Blame it on the white man. That always work.

[grumbler]

How about tagging the Shia-Sunni split as the beginning of the end?  Before that, Islam had no real clerics, just religious philosophers.  After the split, though it became important not just to be Muslim, but the "right kind" of Muslim, and those religious philosophers started to gain the power to say what was, and wasn't, the "right kind" of Islam.

I am not claiming to know enough whether I am over-simplifying the case, but my tenuous read on Islam's Nightfall tends towards this split as a significant change in Muslim (and Arab) identity.

[Queequeg]

Of course having a leader (muhammed) who raped, pillaged, murdered, put people into slavery and was generally unsavoury and created a religo-political way of life based on these facts (as well as making it clear that the world must be conquered, muslims are superior and all the rest at best second class),

Of course, we know what the Israelite prophets did. I Hail Moses, slaughterer of First Born sons!

This post is frankly ridiculous. Tens of millions of people died within the last fifty years in China, but I don't see any posts here about the intrinsic failures of Chinese culture.

Why is that? Because China is reforming and economically developing, and so even the historiopgrahy of China has started to change, going from "Autocratic hermit empire" to "one end of a thriving global trade network."

I'm curious if you also see Nazism as the inevitable culmination of Charlemagne's decision to expand Eastward in the 8th century, setting in motion one of the cornerstones of Germany's heritage: the extermination of those it didn't consider civilized.

Completely agree.  Sonderwegs tend to be bullshit.  Twenty years ago India's history lead irrevocably to a minuscule economic growth rate.  Today it all leads to massive potential for growth. Same with China and Latin America. 

[Queequeg]

How about tagging the Shia-Sunni split as the beginning of the end?  Before that, Islam had no real clerics, just religious philosophers.  After the split, though it became important not just to be Muslim, but the "right kind" of Muslim, and those religious philosophers started to gain the power to say what was, and wasn't, the "right kind" of Islam.

I am not claiming to know enough whether I am over-simplifying the case, but my tenuous read on Islam's Nightfall tends towards this split as a significant change in Muslim (and Arab) identity.

Most of the great Muslim accomplishments were hundreds of years in the future when the Battle of Kerbala happened.  Perhaps you are making a distinction between the Sunni-Shi'ite split and the popularization of the Shi'ite faith under the Safavids?

[Alexandru H.]

There is one thing that troubles me about the whole muslim conquest. Most maps show this huge mass of land, expanding with each ruler until the Abbasids. But the truth of the matter is most areas in Persia weren't even pacified until the Abbasids left business in the hands of native dynasties. This is especially true with Maghred, led by natives from the 740s.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Mohammed, who is the example to be followed in Islam, is a warrior.

I thought he was a merchant.

One of his wives was, which would make mohammed a golddigger alongside all the other bad stuff.