When Did the ME Go Wrong?

[Faeelin]

Well yea, but were they really much suckier than in Russia, or China?

Yeah and both of those countries were in the midst of bloody revolutions and upheaval.

I'm not sure why you said that the Mideast was suckier than Russia or China; if you read accounts from the Russo-Ottoman War of 1878, you find Russian soldiers surprised that the Balkan regions they invaded seemed richer than their hometowns.

Of course, even by the early 20th century you'd had the Capitulations in effect for a while, but still.

[Valmy]

I'm not sure why you said that the Mideast was suckier than Russia or China; if you read accounts from the Russo-Ottoman War of 1878, you find Russian soldiers surprised that the Balkan regions they invaded seemed richer than their hometowns.

Did I say that?  If I in any way implied that I apologize.

[Sheilbh]

I think by 1492 the Jews had been suffering persecution and went back over to the Muslim side.

That could be the case.  I mean the 14th and 15th centuryies are pretty bad for Jews all over Iberia.

[Queequeg]

Well yea, but were they really much suckier than in Russia, or China?

Yeah and both of those countries were in the midst of bloody revolutions and upheaval.

I'm not sure why you said that the Mideast was suckier than Russia or China; if you read accounts from the Russo-Ottoman War of 1878, you find Russian soldiers surprised that the Balkan regions they invaded seemed richer than their hometowns.

Of course, even by the early 20th century you'd had the Capitulations in effect for a while, but still.

Those areas were in most ways the most productive parts of the Empire, providing the Pharonite Greek population that ran the government the Empire and the Albanians and Yeni Cheri that won the wars.  The Cossacks who raided into Central Anatolia would not have been as impressed. 

[Queequeg]

I've heard a theory on a podcast by Yale University (which, as you would guess, spends most of its time egowanking about how great Yale is) that tolerance is the greatest requirement to becoming a "hyperpower".  Its an interesting, remarkable theory I think.  She talked about how the greatest Empires are built up by their minorities as much/more so than the dominant populace (the Armenians, Greeks and Balkan Slavs in the Ottoman Empire, Syraics in the Ummayad Caliphate, Persians in the Abbasid, Greeks in the Roman Empire, Scots in the British, everyone in America).  These Empires tend to break apart when the dominant populace becomes anxious, inward looking and seeks to create some kind of mono-ethnic, 'pure' state.  Quite an elegant little theory, would explain quite a bit in the Mid-East I'd think.

[Faeelin]

A few reasons; the Young Turks were, well, crazy; but I don't think they'd have lasted. Moreover, you can't associate what the Hashemites did with the rest of the Empire's Arabs.

They were pretty prone to desertion while fighting in the Ottoman Army IIRC.

But yeah between Abdul Hamid II and then the Young Turks the Ottoman Empire had seen better times.

It's a tricky subject, actually, because attitudes towards the empire differed in various regions. Syria and Palestine were fairly integrated, the Hijaz was restive, Yemen was hostile, and Mesopotamia indifferent. Also, Abdul Hamid had put a lot of effort into promoting development in the Arab provinces, and built ties with local notables. This kind of made the 1908 revolution ill received.

What would have happened had the Ottomans, say, stayed out of the war is an interesting question, but I I think it's hard to dispute the region would be far, far better off.

[Siege]

When did the ME go wrong?  With the advent of Islam.

My thoughts as well.
I think that the "Arab Golden Age" happened despite the existance of Islam. Not thanks to it.

[Siege]

The Middle East was the richest and most advanced area of the world for millenia prior to the Islamic conquest. Would it be totally out of line to consider that rather than Arab Muslims creating an advanced civilization, they were through good fortune able to conquer an already advanced Middle East and gradually run it into the ground?

Exactly.

[Queequeg]

The early Muslims contributed almost as much to Western Science as the ancient Greeks, a thousand years before them.  Guess again.

[Siege]

I've heard a theory on a podcast by Yale University (which, as you would guess, spends most of its time egowanking about how great Yale is) that tolerance is the greatest requirement to becoming a "hyperpower".  Its an interesting, remarkable theory I think.  She talked about how the greatest Empires are built up by their minorities as much/more so than the dominant populace (the Armenians, Greeks and Balkan Slavs in the Ottoman Empire, Syraics in the Ummayad Caliphate, Persians in the Abbasid, Greeks in the Roman Empire, Scots in the British, everyone in America).  These Empires tend to break apart when the dominant populace becomes anxious, inward looking and seeks to create some kind of mono-ethnic, 'pure' state.  Quite an elegant little theory, would explain quite a bit in the Mid-East I'd think.

How about 19th and 20th century Germany.

Russia and China also seem to rely on their dominant population.

[Siege]

The early Muslims contributed almost as much to Western Science as the ancient Greeks, a thousand years before them.  Guess again.

Urban legend. They just passed to us classical writtings.
Do you have any idea how much of the classical period was lost?

[Queequeg]

Russia's a big cocktail of every ethnicity from France to Manchuria, and that's not even true anyway.

China is a bit different mostly as for its entire history its been as big as the Roman Empire, and thus what was presumably diverse during the Qin and Han Dynasties is now mostly Han.  I would argue that China's homogeneity is still overblown, though.

[Queequeg]

The early Muslims contributed almost as much to Western Science as the ancient Greeks, a thousand years before them.  Guess again.

Urban legend. They just passed to us classical writtings.
Do you have any idea how much of the classical period was lost?

Do you have any idea how brilliant the Muslim mathematicians were?  Or ibn Khaldun?  The Greeks were fantastic at many things, but our modern math is essentially a result of the Caliphate's work. 

[PRC]

ME went wrong when Hulagu Khan left the region the first time.

[Admiral Yi]

I hardly think the rule of the Ottomans, who had ruled the area for five hundred years and were recognized as the leaders of the Islamic world, can really be compared to the brutal and dehumanizing rule of the Japanese in Korea.

Where do you get this notion of brutal and dehumanizing Japanese rule in Korea from?  I seem to recall you mentioning it before.

(Pardon the intrusion.)