The Great Union-Busting Thread

[Admiral Yi]

Usually I don't read the editorial in the NYT week in review (the one that appears with no author, produced by "the editorial board) but I noticed that the subject was NY state workers, and I was curious to see how they would play it.

First, their version of squaring the circle:

"[A bunch of facts about crazy NY public employee compensation..]   To point out these alarming facts is not to be anti-union, or anti-worker.  In recent weeks, Republican politicians in the Midwest have distorted what should be a serious discussion about state employees' wages and benefits, cynically using it as a pretext to crush unions.

New York does not need that sort of destructive game playing.  What it needs is a sober examination of the high costs of wages and benefits, and some serious proposals to rein them in while remaining fair to hardworking government employees."

Some factoids:

In 2000 NY paid $100 million into the pension fund.  Now it costs $1.5 billion.

Last April, in the teeth of "The Great Recession," NY workers got a 4% raise.

NY workers can retire at 55 with full benefits.

After 10 years of service NY workers stop contributing to their own pensions.

Average state employee salary is $63,382.  State average for all workers is $46,957.

[Neil]

Strix must be ready to man the ramparts.

[Admiral Yi]

Strix must be ready to man the ramparts.

Or at least pay some unemployed guy to do it for him.

[Zoupa]

After 10 years of service NY workers stop contributing to their own pensions.

Even the crypto-commie inside of me feels that's not right.

[Darth Wagtaros]

After 10 years of service NY workers stop contributing to their own pensions.

Even the crypto-commie inside of me feels that's not right.

I fucking hate that shit. That and the high three business.  My pay is being skimmed into a pensino system that's being systematically looted and seems designed to be gutted decades before I see a dime of return.

[Josephus]

After 10 years of service NY workers stop contributing to their own pensions.

Even the crypto-commie inside of me feels that's not right.

Me too. Government workers really irritate me and their unions irritate me even more.
Everyone employed by the state is fortunate and shouldn't complain
The problem with Wisconsin and their ilk is that they're setting this up as a union-busting battle, and us lefties have no option whom to side with. If they just set it up as an anti-government worker perque battle, I might be more inclined to support the gov't on this.

[Admiral Yi]

Me too. Government workers really irritate me and their unions irritate me even more.

....

The problem with Wisconsin and their ilk is that they're setting this up as a union-busting battle, and us lefties have no option whom to side with.

A bit of a contradiction, no?

[DGuller]

After 10 years of service NY workers stop contributing to their own pensions.

Even the crypto-commie inside of me feels that's not right.

I don't think that makes more than a sentimental difference.  Pension is part of pay package, how much employee nominally contributes isn't that relevant.  What's relevant is the actuarial value of the pension being given to the employee (and how hidden a cost that is, given the habit of state governments to both severely undervalue pension obligations, and their refusal to fund them fully).

[DGuller]

The problem with Wisconsin and their ilk is that they're setting this up as a union-busting battle, and us lefties have no option whom to side with. If they just set it up as an anti-government worker perque battle, I might be more inclined to support the gov't on this.

Agreed.  I never knew there would be a day where I would even consider siding with public employee unions, but Wisconsin Republicans sure tempt me.  Unions are bad, but oligarchs are much worse, and this appears to be a battle between resurgent oligarchs and decaying unions.  The Wisconsin fight threatens to discredit the effort to push back the unions in states where they really are a cancer on the economy.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't think that makes more than a sentimental difference.  Pension is part of pay package, how much employee nominally contributes isn't that relevant.  What's relevant is the actuarial value of the pension being given to the employee (and how hidden a cost that is, given the habit of state governments to both severely undervalue pension obligations, and their refusal to fund them fully).

It makes much more than a sentimental difference to the state budget.  The more an employee contributes, holding the payout constant, the less the state has to poney up.

[Ed Anger]

Scott Walker and John Kasich makes me question my votes for the last 10 years or so.

[PDH]

I have to pay into my pension plan until I retire.

[Admiral Yi]

Agreed.  I never knew there would be a day where I would even consider siding with public employee unions, but Wisconsin Republicans sure tempt me.  Unions are bad, but oligarchs are much worse, and this appears to be a battle between resurgent oligarchs and decaying unions.  The Wisconsin fight threatens to discredit the effort to push back the unions in states where they really are a cancer on the economy.

Oligarchs aren't the only ones paying state workers.  Well, at least they're not the only ones.

[CountDeMoney]

NY workers can retire at 55 with full benefits.

Is that after 20 or 25 years vested?

[MadImmortalMan]

I pay into my 401k and IRA. And the investments in there are directed by me, not some flunky who mismanages it. Pension fund directors tend to be morons on the whole, so good luck with that.  Just don't make me pay extra taxes to make up for the money they lost on credit default swaps, Venezuelan sovereigns and wind farms in Tanganyika.