TV/Movies Megathread

[Admiral Yi]

If the European Allies declared war on Germany to defend Czechoslovakia, would the US have joined or would it still have stayed out until Pearl Harbour?

Definitely stayed out.

[The Larch]

A not-quite WWII war between UK + France Vs. Germany in 1938 due to the crisis in Czechoslovakia would make for quite a fantasy scenario. You'd have:

- A not so mighty Germany, basically at post-WWI borders except for the Austrian Anschluss.

- Some key pre-WWII diplomatic agreements not yet signed. No Molotov - Ribentropp pact, no "Pact of Steel" between Germany and Italy either.

- Plenty of minor nations that could side with the Western Allies (Poland, Yugoslavia, a not yet on Germany's side Romania and Hungary...).

- Italy still not yet formally allied with Germany, fresh from its conquest of Ethiopia and before its invasion of Albania.

- A completely uncomitted Soviet Union, free to move into any direction it wants (Poland? Baltics? Finland? Romania? all of them with no German support due to no Molotov - Ribentropp pact?), although with unresolved border tension with Japan. During the Czekoslovakia crisis it strongly supported Czekoslovakia, so it could potentially join the Western allies, although it'd have no direct route to meet with German forces.

- A still unfinished Spanish Civil War taking place.

I think it's not unconceivable that such a conflict would remain a purely European war, not getting to World War levels. The role of the Soviet Union is quite the unpredictable one, although in 1938 it's still somehow weakened by the very recent purges.

[celedhring]

Somebody should make a videogame where you could play these kind of things.

[garbon]

Somebody should make a videogame where you could play these kind of things.

That would detract from reforming the Byzantine Empire.

[crazy canuck]

Just finished Munich-The Edge of War.

There is some writing over the closing credits.  It ends up with the extra time bought by the Munich agreement enabled Britain and her allies to prepare for war and ultimately led to Germany's defeat.

So weird, both from a historical revisionist POV and because it goes completely against the theme of the movie, which is that Chamberlain made a huge mistake signing the agreement.

Here is a great podcast on the topic - btw, if you thought the theme of the movie was it was a big mistake then that probably is your own perspective.  As they state during the podcast, the makers of the movie were trying to make the opposite point - Chamberlain is not given near enough credit for what he did and became a fall guy because he died and was not able to defend his actions.

https://podfollow.com/dan-snows-history-hit/episode/940d444e1d855bcec1a68bbc55ee17c51fc411fd/view

[Josquius]

Sooooo flicking through the channels I stumble on BBC2 where they're showing an art piece.... Of a lady shitting on camera. Then a guy being sick. And they show it all.
I look forward to the complaints.

[viper37]

My feeling is that Munich ended up indirectly provoking WWII. I've always thought that it led Hitler to overplay his hand with Poland, thinking he would get away with it again.

But I'm no expert on the matter.

That was Hitler's plan.  In his mind, war with GB & France would not happen until 43-45 and by this time, he would have had a decent surface navy, hence why they went all in on the U-boats.

[viper37]

Somebody should make a videogame where you could play these kind of things.

That would detract from reforming the Byzantine Empire.

True, we'd miss out on all the fun and joy of political assassinations, open rebellions, backstabbing Persians, Bulgars & Avars incursions as well as the Arab push.

It's a shame there's no grand strategy game about Rome from the founding of the Republic to the modern age.  I'd love to see what my Byzantine army could do with Incan torpedo boats.

[viper37]

I look forward to the complaints.

It's art, they said.

[Tamas]

I believe Germany lost WW2 when the UK decided (its leaders but also the people) not to give up after the defeat of France. Germany had no chance of knocking Britain out of the war completely, although they could and did cause a lot of suffering and put a heavy price on Britain staying in the war. But once British resolve was assured, the only question was when would Germany lose.

[grumbler]

Re:  Munich, I've wavered over time between thinking it was necessary and thinking that it was a mistake.  Currently, I am in the mistake camp.

The UK and France did spend more than Germany on rearmament in the 18 months between Munich and the outbreak of war, but they spent it largely on the wrong things.  Either the things they bought couldn't be delivered on time (like the huge French aircraft orders in the US) or on the wrong things (doubling the RAF budget but then spending the new cash on shitty long-range bombers).  Germany was in no shape to fight in early 1938 and the Soviets were willing to toss their hat in the ring against them (meaning no Soviet raw materials to feed Germany's rearmament and no Communist Party interference in allied production like after the M-R Pact).  Czech resistance to the Germans would have been formidable (probably much more relatively effective than that of Poland 18 months later, due to better modernization and a better strategic and geographic position).

Czechoslovakia would have fallen eventually, but the Germans would pay a steep price and wouldn't get the Czech arms industry intact.  That could significantly imp[act the events of a year later (especially not M-L Pact).

[grumbler]

I believe Germany lost WW2 when the UK decided (its leaders but also the people) not to give up after the defeat of France. Germany had no chance of knocking Britain out of the war completely, although they could and did cause a lot of suffering and put a heavy price on Britain staying in the war. But once British resolve was assured, the only question was when would Germany lose.

So that meeting in the Tube really was as important as the movie implied!

[viper37]

I believe Germany lost WW2 when the UK decided (its leaders but also the people) not to give up after the defeat of France. Germany had no chance of knocking Britain out of the war completely, although they could and did cause a lot of suffering and put a heavy price on Britain staying in the war. But once British resolve was assured, the only question was when would Germany lose.

Britain alone was unable to turn the tide. They could defend themselves, but they could not counter-attack.

Britain was totally dependent on support from its colonies and international trade with the US.  Germany tried and came very close to strangle Britain, but without a decent surface navy and relying only on its U-boat, again, they couldn't achieve victory.
How all of this would have worked if Germany did not attack the USSR and instead maintained a blocus of Great Britain and constantly rebuilt and upgraded its aircrafts to finally defeat GB?  It all depends on when the US enters the war.  If Hitler never declares war on the US after Pearl Harbor, does the US still enters war in Europe at some point?  What would have convinced them to intervene?

I'd say, the ideal scenario for Germany is no invasion of USSR and no US DoW.  From there, it's only a matter of time until the pro-peace elements of British society win over Churchill and negotiate with Hitler.  But of course, that's a rational strategy game player might do, while still keeping an eye on USSR.  Reality is always a tad different

[Berkut]

I think the US declares war on Germany after Pearl Harbor, even if Germany did not declare on them.


At the very least, the US radically ramps up support for the UK without a formal DOW, which amounts to the same thing from Germany's perspective.

[Sheilbh]

The UK and France did spend more than Germany on rearmament in the 18 months between Munich and the outbreak of war, but they spent it largely on the wrong things.  Either the things they bought couldn't be delivered on time (like the huge French aircraft orders in the US) or on the wrong things (doubling the RAF budget but then spending the new cash on shitty long-range bombers).  Germany was in no shape to fight in early 1938 and the Soviets were willing to toss their hat in the ring against them (meaning no Soviet raw materials to feed Germany's rearmament and no Communist Party interference in allied production like after the M-R Pact).  Czech resistance to the Germans would have been formidable (probably much more relatively effective than that of Poland 18 months later, due to better modernization and a better strategic and geographic position).

I think the USSR's a bit more of a wild card - just because I think the two big drivers for them at that point seem to have been a desire for security and Versailles revisionism.

So they were definitely very keen on a real alliance with the UK, France and Czechs (although they always suspected they would be betrayed/let down) - I wonder if facing a Czech/French/UK war on Germany if they might not have just tried to take advantage against, say, Poland and Romania and the Baltics.

Similarly it's before Khalkin Gol so I wonder if they just decide to step back until they're more secure on the border with Manchuria?

Britain alone was unable to turn the tide. They could defend themselves, but they could not counter-attack.

I think that's fair - although Britain was outproducing Germany on arms, planes, tanks and ships by the end of 1940 and never fell behind again which I think probably has an impact on any attempt by Germany to finally defeat Britain.

I suppose my point is how essential Britain was as an island airstrip on the west both for supplying and transiting goods to the USSR (though never, despite lots of pressure internally and from the Soviets, sending troops - that might have shifted without the US entering the war), distracting Germany on other fronts and eventually as a launching pad for opening a second front. I genuinely don't know if it was that important but that's always been why I thought the Battle of Britain mattered - not because of Britain's participation itself but almost just the geographic space.