Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Neil]

Perhaps, but I see no reason why outside powers should be bound to respect it.  The rule of respect for state sovereignty is no more than an international norm.  A putative regime that operates outside of such norms cannot expect to claim their protection.

Stalin's prewar regime enjoyed such protection.  It seems like the precedent is that any regime at all can expect some level of respect.

[dps]

Is he the Gadhafi son that looks like lustindarkness?  If so, maybe lusti has a future career as his impersonator, a la Moon Over Parador.

Maybe it was Lusti who died!  

Although Wiki says he's no longer dead.

I guess he got better.

[jimmy olsen]

Perhaps, but I see no reason why outside powers should be bound to respect it.  The rule of respect for state sovereignty is no more than an international norm.  A putative regime that operates outside of such norms cannot expect to claim their protection.

Stalin's prewar regime enjoyed such protection.  It seems like the precedent is that any regime at all can expect some level of respect.

It was power that brought that respect, not legitimacy.

[CountDeMoney]

Perhaps, but I see no reason why outside powers should be bound to respect it.  The rule of respect for state sovereignty is no more than an international norm.  A putative regime that operates outside of such norms cannot expect to claim their protection.

Stalin's prewar regime enjoyed such protection.  It seems like the precedent is that any regime at all can expect some level of respect.

It was power that brought that respect, not legitimacy.

Fuck you.

[Valmy]

I guess he got better.

Dang I wanted to do the whole impersonating of a lost prince thing and launch a coup in Lusti's name.

[Mr.Penguin]

[HisMajestyBOB]

 

[The Minsky Moment]

Stalin's prewar regime enjoyed such protection. 

not so, the British, French, and even the Yanks had no compunction landing their troops and marching them about until their publics got too war weary to keep it up.

The Soviet regime subsequently stayed afloat because of the fatigue and opportunism of the outside powers, not because of their respect for the integrity of the Bolshevik state.

[lustindarkness]

 

[dps]

Stalin's prewar regime enjoyed such protection. 

not so, the British, French, and even the Yanks had no compunction landing their troops and marching them about until their publics got too war weary to keep it up.

The Soviet regime subsequently stayed afloat because of the fatigue and opportunism of the outside powers, not because of their respect for the integrity of the Bolshevik state.

To get technical, there were no western troops there by the time Stalin took over IIRC. 

[Neil]

Stalin's prewar regime enjoyed such protection. 

not so, the British, French, and even the Yanks had no compunction landing their troops and marching them about until their publics got too war weary to keep it up.

The Soviet regime subsequently stayed afloat because of the fatigue and opportunism of the outside powers, not because of their respect for the integrity of the Bolshevik state.

Relations had normalized by the time that Stalin was running things, and they were signing agreements with them at that point.

[Mr.Penguin]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/24/2132509/on-the-ground-in-libya-rebels.html

On the ground in Libya: Rebels with a cause, but little else

By NANCY A. YOUSSEF
McClatchy Newspapers

BENGHAZI, Libya -- Rebel fighters who once vowed to seize Tripoli from Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi instead have retreated from their forward positions to defend their homes, saying their rebel council isn't leading them, they don't trust their military commanders and their army is divided.

Days of interviews throughout Libya's rebel-dominated eastern half provide a grim picture of the group whose side the United States and its coalition partners have taken in a fight whose goal, if unstated, is to drive Gadhafi from power after 42 years. The rebels hardly seem ready to take the lead.

Rather than strive to win the war and take back cities lost to Gadhafi over the last 10 days, rebel fighters say they simply want to defend their homes, figure out who's friend or foe, and regroup.

Hopes of a new constitutional, democratic Libya that drove the rebellion a month ago appear moribund, dashed by the ease with which Gadhafi forces entered this city a week ago. Residents here openly acknowledge that Gadhafi loyalists would have taken the city had French aircraft not bombed loyalist tanks.

The realization that they could have been so quickly overwhelmed has forced the rebels to confront the weaknesses of the council that claims to be their government and of the rebel fighting force itself. Perhaps most unnerving was the discovery that hundreds, if not thousands, of Gadhafi sympathizers were among them.


During the loyalist attack, rebels here say, men in civilian clothes came out of their Benghazi homes and attacked the city along with Gadhafi forces charging in from the south. Rebels said they suspect other infiltrators have spied on them from the frontline.


"We don't have an army," said Lt. Saleh Ibrahim, a former restaurateur who is now supposed to be a rebel commander. "We have been betrayed by infiltrators on the frontline. And when Benghazi came under attack, our government fled to Egypt. We are not safe here. For me, at least I will defend my family."

Among those who've left the frontlines to defend his home is 19-year-old Ayub al-Mehdu, who was part of the initial rebel push into Ajdabiya, Brega, Ras Lanouf and Bin Jawad, all communities since lost to Gadhafi forces. His job was to pick up the dead bodies, almost always stripped for weapons, he said. Along the way, he lost his best friend, also a rebel fighter.

The mild-mannered young man with the tiny frame returned to Benghazi three days ago, He says he's planning to buy smuggled weapons near the Egyptian border. In the meantime, he and his friends stand outside the neighborhood and stop cars, particularly those from Tripoli, and search them for possible infiltrators.


His reasons for leaving are pretty simple, he said. There's an internal strife between Special Forces, many of whom are former military officers, and the rebels, a majority of whom had never fired a weapon until last month.

The Special Forces feel the rebels are slowing them down; the rebels don't trust the Special Forces and want to defend the movement they started. Both groups are ill equipped to confront Gadhafi's better armed forces.

The rebel council hasn't done much for him, other than provide food to fighters, he said.

"It's useless," he explained.


His friend and fellow fighter, Mohammed Saleh Ojadee, 23, a mechanic shop owner turned rebel fighter, offers a more ominous prediction. He said he fears that the power vacuum, and the constant feeling of mistrust here, could spark a civil war, based on vengeance for acts of betrayal that happen during this uncertain period.

"The continuous unrest that is happening in Benghazi has never happened before. We are not used to it. I am afraid people will lose hope living under that pressure and turn on one another," Ojadee said. "We need a leader."

Divided they fall...

[Admiral Yi]

  Whata buncha pinheads.  Glad it's Sarkozy that has to deal with them and not us.

[Ed Anger]

look at that fucking hipster.

[Kleves]

  Whata buncha pinheads.  Glad it's Sarkozy that has to deal with them and not us.

Sounds like we're going to be sticking around and blowing shit up for awhile yet.