Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Duque de Bragança]

Sarko heir of Léon Blum and Pierre Mendès-France (the latter of Portuguese jewish ascendancy). Interesting

Maternal grand-father was a Thessalonica jew (Sepharadic) who later became a Catholic convert to marry. Nico's father is Hungarian as previously noted. So he has foreign heritage but claiming he is a foreigner is as wacky as birthers' claims about Obama  and/or that whole hyphenated identity nonsense Sarko never went to Hungary before being president nor does he speak Hungarian and much less ladino.

[Mr.Penguin]

From Al Jazeera:

11:11am
Mustafa Abdul Jalil, the head of the Libyan Interim Council, tells Al Jazeera that residential areas in Benghazi are under attack by artillery and tanks. He also said that the plane shot down belongs to the rebels.

I wouldnt be surprised if the rebel Mig-23 turn out have been shot down by the rebels themself, sucks to be a rebel pilot these days... 

[Grinning_Colossus]

At least he survived. They don't really need jets anymore.

[Zanza2]

The abstentions came from China, Russia, Germany, India, and Brazil. Germany said it was concerned about a protracted military conflict. China said it opposes the use of armed force in international relations.

I don't get the position of the German government in this issue. Why do we join the BRICs and Lybia instead of our NATO partners? Now Germany doesn't just let its allies fight alone, but even abandons them in diplomacy? It's not like we would have contributed meaningfully in a military intervention anyway, but why can't we at least join the rest of the West in the UN?

Qadaffi even bombed a Berlin disco didn't he? No lingering feelings over that?

I don't think that has any relevance for current policy. The reason why Germany abstains is rather simple by the way: there are crucial regional elections this Sunday and the next one. As Merkel's coalition might lose the south-western state of Baden-Württemberg for the first time since the 1950s, they don't want to risk to be called war mongers by the opposition. They already had to do a risky and awkward volte face on nuclear policy last week.

[Viking]

No, the reason germany is reluctant to get involved is the wide availability of footage of the DAK and Panzerarmeé Afrika.

Sadly, if they did send WWII surplus, the quality of armed forces involved would probably improve.

[Darth Wagtaros]

At least he survived. They don't really need jets anymore.

By the looks of it what they need are international visas and some seed money to get started in other countries.

[Caliga]

I don't think that has any relevance for current policy. The reason why Germany abstains is rather simple by the way: there are crucial regional elections this Sunday and the next one. As Merkel's coalition might lose the south-western state of Baden-Württemberg for the first time since the 1950s, they don't want to risk to be called war mongers by the opposition. They already had to do a risky and awkward volte face on nuclear policy last week.

Like I said in an earlier thread, Patton has pussified the German people for all eternity.

[Sheilbh]

I quite like the German abstention.  I think it's closest to my own view on the whole thing.  No doubt everyone in the UK, US and France will support this, especially once they see planes in the sky and our boys at risk.  But I'm very ambivalent and not entirely comfortable with the whole thing.  I think the German vote was, as far as is possible, an honest abstention.

[Warspite]

I quite like the German abstention.  I think it's closest to my own view on the whole thing.  No doubt everyone in the UK, US and France will support this, especially once they see planes in the sky and our boys at risk.  But I'm very ambivalent and not entirely comfortable with the whole thing.  I think the German vote was, as far as is possible, an honest abstention.

To me it all smacks of 'Do Something' rather than a coherent strategy.

[Darth Wagtaros]

I quite like the German abstention.  I think it's closest to my own view on the whole thing.  No doubt everyone in the UK, US and France will support this, especially once they see planes in the sky and our boys at risk.  But I'm very ambivalent and not entirely comfortable with the whole thing.  I think the German vote was, as far as is possible, an honest abstention.

To me it all smacks of 'Do Something' rather than a coherent strategy.

Well to be fair, I don't think anybody saw this massive upheaval in North Africa or the Gulf (to a lesser extent) coming so it is probably hard to plan for.  I think the only coherent strategy at work is to let a weakened Gadaffi remain in power so that the pro-democracy - if it is that - movement faulters without anymore stable regimes  being toppled and a return to the status quo comes as soon as possible.

[Ed Anger]

I am preparing my weekend TV viewing around this. Snacks have been ordered, Diet Dr. Pepper is chilling.

Impress me France and UK, impress me.

[Ed Anger]

BBC sez RAF deploying 9 and 31 squadrons.

Canada is deploying a half dozen CF-18s.

Don't strain yourself Canucks.

"Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Iroquois-class Destroyer!"

Actually we sent a Halifax class frigate as well. :canuck:

ooooooooooooo.

[Sheilbh]

To me it all smacks of 'Do Something' rather than a coherent strategy.

Yep.  And what worries me most is that neither Obama or Cameron seem aware that what we've embarked on is regime change.  I think motivated by an entirely understandable and quite right desire to stop brutality against civilians we're engaging in military action when the end goal isn't actually clear. 

What if Gaddafi wins on the ground?  Do we stop?  What if the rebels start winning and we see their tanks shelling Tripoli?  Or indeed if we see rebel repraisals against regime loyallists?

I don't understand what it is that we want to be the situation after this intervention (which wasn't true in Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq) and what's worse I don't think our political leadership does.  The only coherent answer I can think of is regime change but no-one's saying that except, possibly, Sarko.  Not least because it's difficult.

[Mr.Penguin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the reports from Benghazi turns out to be a rebel counter offensive gone wrong. That the rebels have tried to force the hand of the international community, after Gaddafi a announced the ceasefire. An bombardment of the pro- Gaddafi units are much more likely as long as the fighting on the ground continues. A prolonged ceasefire with the pro- gaddafi troops just holding their current positions works against the goals of the rebels, both their short therm goals and on long therm goals. They would much more like to see the international coalition clear the way, all along the coast up to Tripoli.

[Duque de Bragança]

No, the reason germany is reluctant to get involved is the wide availability of footage of the DAK and Panzerarmeé Afrika.

Sadly, if they did send WWII surplus, the quality of armed forces involved would probably improve.

Not for the rifles, while the AK-47 might be a copy of the groundbreaking StG 44, it is still an improved weapon.