Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Syt]

Only if Italians and Brits go first.

[Mr.Penguin]

Only if Italians and Brits go first.

Italians first, you krauts never learn...

[citizen k]

update:

NATO airstrikes hit Tripoli, heaviest bombing yet
By DIAA HADID and MICHELLE FAUL, Associated Press


TRIPOLI, Libya – NATO warplanes bombarded targets in Tripoli with more than 20 airstrikes early Tuesday, striking around Moammar Gadhafi's residential compound in what appeared to be the heaviest night of bombing of the Libyan capital since the Western alliance launched its air campaign against his forces.

The rapid string of strikes, all within less than half an hour, set off thunderous booms that rattled windows, sent heavy, acrid-smelling plumes of smoke over the city, including from an area close to Gadhafi's sprawling Bab al-Aziziya compound.

Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said at least three people were killed and dozens wounded in NATO strikes that targeted what he described as buildings used by volunteer units of the Libyan army.

NATO said in a statement that a number of the strikes hit a vehicle storage facility adjacent to Bab al-Aziziya that has been used in supplying regime forces "conducting attacks on civilians." It was not immediately clear if the facility was the only target hit in the barrage. Bab al-Aziziya, which includes a number of military facilities, has been pounded repeatedly by NATO strikes.

The military aircraft whooshed low over the city during the night, the strikes coming in series of three loud booms, a pause of minutes punctuated by the hissing sound of low-flying jets, then more shaking, shuddering strikes, shaking windows miles away from Bab al-Aziziya. The sound of other more distant explosions could also be heard.

Pro-Gadhafi loyalists beeped their car horns and fired guns, shouting their support for the Libyan leader. Armed men sprayed the night sky with gunfire in response. Men screamed and shouted outside the hotel where journalists were staying, declaring their loyalty to Gadhafi.

Observers described the bombing as the heaviest attack on the Libyan capital since NATO began its air campaign on March 19 after the passage of a U.N. Security Council resolution to protect civilians after Gadhafi responded to the public uprising against his rule by unleashing his military and his militias.

In one room of the Tripoli Central Hospital, the bodies of three mangled men in their twenties lay on stretchers, their clothing ripped and their faces partially blown away and dusty. A nurse, Ahmad Shara, told reporters taken on a government-escorted visit to the facility soon after the strikes that the men were standing outside their homes when they were killed, presumably by shrapnel.

One man who identified himself as a relative walked into the room where the bodies lay. He halted at their sight, turned around and loudly slapped his hands on a wall as he cried out in shock.

Around 10 other men and women lay on stretchers. They appeared moderately to lightly wounded.

"We thought it was the day of judgment," said Fathallah Salem, a 45-year-old contractor who rushed his 75-year-old mother to the hospital after she suffered shock. The wide-eyed man described how his home trembled, his mother fainted and how the younger of his seven children cried as they heard the rolling explosions.

"You were in the hotel and you were terrified by the shaking — imagine what it was like for the people who live in slums!" Salem said, as he interrupted a government spokesman to speak to a crowd of foreign reporters at the hospital.

"Honestly, we used to have problems (with the regime)," he said in Arabic. "But today we are all Moammar Gadhafi."

NATO, which said in its statement that it took care to "minimize the risk of collateral damage to the fullest extent possible," has been escalating and widening the scope of its strikes over the past weeks, hiking the pressure on Gadhafi, while the alliance's members have built closer ties with the rebel movement that has control of the eastern half of Libya. On Monday, the highest-ranking U.S. diplomat in the Middle East, Jeffrey Feltman, was in the de facto rebel capital of Benghazi in a show of support.

Despite NATO bombing runs, the rebels have not been able to break Gadhafi's grip on the west of the country, including the capital Tripoli.

In a significant new deployment of firepower, France and Britain are bringing attack helicopters to use in the strikes in Libya as soon as possible, French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet said Monday.

The use of attack helicopters would appear to mark a new strategy for NATO, which has relied on strikes by fighter planes and seen that result in a stalemate on the ground as Gadhafi forces adapted, often turning to urban fighting to make such strikes more difficult.

Nimble, low-flying helicopters have much more leeway to pick targets with precision than high-flying jets. But they also are much more vulnerable to ground fire. The alliance has had no military deaths since it first started enforcing a no-fly zone on March 31.

Longuet said the helicopters would be used to target military equipment such as Libyan tanker and ammunition trucks in crowded urban areas while causing fewer civilian casualties. Longuet said France would essentially use Gazelle helicopters, which have been around for some 40 years, but can also use the Tigre, a modern helicopter gunship.

The U.S. State Department statement said the visit by Feltman, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, was "another signal of the U.S.'s support" for the rebels' National Transitional Council, which it called "a legitimate and credible interlocutor for the Libyan people."

Several countries, including France and Italy, have recognized the NTC, while the United States, Britain and others have established a diplomatic presence in Benghazi.

Feltman plans to meet with council head Mustafa Abdul-Jalil and others before his scheduled departure on Tuesday. He declined to answer questions Monday by a reporter from The Associated Press.

The visit follows the opening of a European Union office on Sunday by that body's top diplomat, Catherine Ashton, who said she looked forward to a better Libya "where Gadhafi will not be in the picture."

Rebel leaders welcome the diplomatic contact, but say only better weapons will help them defeat Gadhafi.

"It is just not enough to recognize (us) and visit the liberated areas," spokesman Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga told AP. "We have tried very hard to explain to them that we need the arms, we need funding, to be able to bring this to a successful conclusion at the earliest possible time and with the fewest humanitarian costs possible."

Rebels now control the populated coastal strip in the country's east and the western port city of Misrata, which Gadhafi's forces have besieged for months. They also control pockets in Libya's western Nafusa mountain range.

Ghoga warned that residents of the Nafusa mountains face a "major humanitarian disaster" because government troops have been cutting supply lines to communities. Rebels say about 225,000 people live in the area.

Col. Jumaa Ibrahim, who defected from Gadhafi's forces and is now a member of the mountain military council, said two villages, Galaa and Yefren, are facing critical shortages. "There is no water, money or food. They are bombed everyday with launchers, tanks and whatever they can," Ibrahim said.

Villagers raise goats and sheep and grow apricots and almonds on the plain near their town, he said. Many fear Gadhafi's troops have destroyed their orchards and stolen or killed their animals.

Gadhafi's forces fired rockets at the mountain town of Zintan on Monday, damaging houses and the tanker trucks residents use to bring in water, resident Hamid Embayah told the AP via Skype. No one was injured.



Faul reported from Benghazi, Libya. Associated Press Writer Ben Hubbard in Cairo and Bouazza Ben Bouazza in Tunisia contributed reporting.

A plastic skeleton and used ammunition is seen in a checkpoint as rebel fighters drive towards the front line with Moammar Gadhafi forces, 25 km west from Misrata, Libya, Monday, May 23, 2011. On the sign hanging from the skeleton it reads 'Destiny of Traitors'.(AP Photo/Rodrigo Abd)

[Zoupa]

3000 Légionnaires and this shit would be over in a month. What's with the pussyfooting.

[alfred russel]

3000 Légionnaires and this shit would be over in a month. What's with the pussyfooting.

I agree. I think intervention was a terrible idea, but the worst idea of all is to intervene so lightly you promote a stalemate. Go in, or don't go in.

I guess the leaders are afraid of putting in ground troops because of casualties and also it will make it harder to just disappear from the giant mess that will be left when Quadafi goes.

[CountDeMoney]

3000 Légionnaires and this shit would be over in a month. What's with the pussyfooting.

No kidding.  I think it's high time to start putting some curbstompers on the ground in this shit.

[Caliga]

We should make the Italians do it.

[Razgovory]

We should make the Italians do it.

If we do, Libya will end up in Naples by the end of the year.

[Caliga]

I don't think so.  Italy isn't lead by Il Duce anymore.  Now they have Silvio.  He can shoot awesomeness out of his eyes like frikkin laser beams.

[Caliga]

 

Libyan Rebel Council to Open Office in Washington
VOA News  May 24, 2011

A top U.S. diplomat for the Middle East says the Libyan rebel's Transitional National Council has accepted an invitation from U.S. President Barack Obama to open a representative office in Washington

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Jeffrey Feltman said Tuesday in the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi that the United States is no longer speaking with Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.  He said the U.S. considered the opposition council as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people, stopping short of granting formal recognition to the TNC.

The high-ranking U.S. diplomat is on a three-day visit to Libya and is the most senior U.S. official to visit the country since the uprising against Gadhafi began in February.

The diplomatic invitation comes as NATO warplanes rocked the Libyan capital, Tripoli, with some of its heaviest airstrikes yet.

Witnesses heard at least 15 explosions in the city as NATO warplanes roared overhead Tuesday. A Libyan government spokesman says the latest strikes killed at least three people and wounded dozens more.

On Monday, Britain and France announced that they plan to deploy attack helicopters to join the NATO air campaign. French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe Monday said the deployment falls within the United Nations mandate to protect Libyan civilians.  NATO says use of the helicopters will allow more precise targeting of Gadhafi's military.

[KRonn]

It is a bit frustrating to see this in a stalemate, especially with NATO involved. But I think during this time Gadaffi's forces aren't making headway, while the Rebel forces are getting better trained and equipped. Then they'll be able to take the fight to Gadaffi's forces, and hopefully end this. However, as in all the Arab nations that have had uprisings, I think it's just as much a concern what the next group to come to power will be.

[Caliga]

Yeah, even though it's mostly stalemated now, the longer this goes on the less of a chance Gadhafi has of actually winning.  The best I can see him doing now is maintaining control over Tripolitania and the south, but I think Cyrenaica is pemanently lost to him now, unless someone decides to intervene on his side and help out... a prospect that has no chance of actually happening.

[Ed Anger]

3000 Légionnaires and this shit would be over in a month. What's with the pussyfooting.

You turn me on with that kind of talk.

Also, 2 weeks tops.

[Berkut]

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out--especially to Berkut--that this is exactly the type of clusterfuck that made intervention a terrible idea. This is the one of the worst scenarios that could have developed: a stalemate where you have active violence, no effective government in the country, and international business severely disrupted (which for a small country like Libya is crucial). 

I disagree completely. This is not even close to "one of the worst scenarios" - people fighting to get out from under a dictator makes the "worst scenario" pretty simple. It is when the dictator wins and they get to look forward to another 50 years of dictatorship since it means the dictator just become an order of magnitude stronger.

Worst case scenario? North Korea is the "worst case scenario" that can result from intervention, or not intervening and letting the dictator win - although in that case at least we managed to keep South Korea from that same fate, so the "worst case" only applied to half the country instead of the whole.

You are suffering from the fallacy of seeing a situation at the worst moment (or just a bad moment, it could get even worse before it gets better), and assuming this is the end state. It is only the end state if you convince yourself that it cannot be better, and simply give up. This is the error made by those who said the US should bail from Iraq when the insurgency was at its worst, because it was the "worst case" outcome.

And even if the entire thing eventually fails, and the worst case scenario still does come about, I won't regret supporting people trying to overthrow a dictator. Even with all their Islamic bonkers warts.

What if the French in the American revolutionary War had said "Oh man, the Americans are in a stalemate! This is the worst case scenario, lets abandon them! We never should have helped to begin with!". Of course, that analogy falls down only to the extent that British rule was vastly more benevolent that Qaddafi's dictatorship.

[Caliga]

Of course, that analogy falls down only to the extent that British rule was vastly more benevolent that Qaddafi's dictatorship.

We were wrong to rebel actually.