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House to vote on health care reform Sunday.

Started by jimmy olsen, March 21, 2010, 07:49:56 AM

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Admiral Yi

Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 07:20:44 PM
My wife has a certain medical condition that requires a lot of medical visits in increasing frequency.  Haven't paid a dime.
I think DP's question was about the part of the US outside of Canada.

HisMajestyBOB

Quote from: Barrister on March 22, 2010, 07:20:44 PM
My wife has a certain medical condition that requires a lot of medical visits in increasing frequency.  Haven't paid a dime.

Tax evader. <_<
Three lovely Prada points for HoI2 help

Hansmeister

Quote from: Faeelin on March 22, 2010, 06:43:25 PM
http://www.acslaw.org/files/Lazarus%20Issue%20Brief%20Final.pdf#page=2

An interesting look at the constitutionality of the mandate. It's from a Liberal think tank, but still, IMO, pretty persuasive.

I do hope this means Hans will shut up about judicial activism now that he's begging the Supreme Court to find that exchanging money for services doesn't fall under commerce.
But if you don't buy health insurance there is no commerce by definition, no?  So how can the act of not engaging in commerce be regulated by the commerce clause?

grumbler

Quote from: Hansmeister on March 22, 2010, 08:22:14 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on March 22, 2010, 06:43:25 PM
http://www.acslaw.org/files/Lazarus%20Issue%20Brief%20Final.pdf#page=2

An interesting look at the constitutionality of the mandate. It's from a Liberal think tank, but still, IMO, pretty persuasive.

I do hope this means Hans will shut up about judicial activism now that he's begging the Supreme Court to find that exchanging money for services doesn't fall under commerce.
But if you don't buy health insurance there is no commerce by definition, no?  So how can the act of not engaging in commerce be regulated by the commerce clause?
Read the article.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Faeelin

I suppose even without the Commerce Clause, how can you say this isn't in the interests of "general welfare", but Social Security is, as defined in Helvering?


garbon

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 22, 2010, 03:50:53 PM
Don't bet the ranch on it.

I'm willing to bet the farm. I don't have much on it besides those pesky farmhands.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Hansmeister

Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2010, 09:01:06 PMRead the article.

I did.  The argument in favour of the Commerce Clause is extremely weak to laughable.  The argument on the General Welfare clause is much more persuasive.

Razgovory

Quote from: Hansmeister on March 22, 2010, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 22, 2010, 09:01:06 PMRead the article.

I did.  The argument in favour of the Commerce Clause is extremely weak to laughable.  The argument on the General Welfare clause is much more persuasive.

Use your great legal mind to tell us why.  Cite cases and legal precedents.  Don't use any blogs or anything like that to help you.  Just use pure Hans.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

garbon

Quote from: Razgovory on March 22, 2010, 11:45:17 PM
Use your great legal mind to tell us why.  Cite cases and legal precedents.  Don't use any blogs or anything like that to help you.  Just use pure Hans.

I've seen that video of him. I don't want to see pure Hans. :x
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2010, 11:46:53 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 22, 2010, 11:45:17 PM
Use your great legal mind to tell us why.  Cite cases and legal precedents.  Don't use any blogs or anything like that to help you.  Just use pure Hans.

I've seen that video of him. I don't want to see pure Hans. :x

Oh, don't like your Hans black eh?  How about some Hans with sugar and cream?  A nice creamy Hans, just oozing out of that uniform.  Mouthwatering.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

garbon

I only like creampuffs when they have a nice filling.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: garbon on March 23, 2010, 12:00:39 AM
I only like creampuffs when they have a nice filling.

That would be a problem.  Hans is just filled with bullshit.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Hansmeister on March 22, 2010, 08:22:14 PM
But if you don't buy health insurance there is no commerce by definition, no?  So how can the act of not engaging in commerce be regulated by the commerce clause?

The Commerce Clause is not phrased in terms of regulating individuals who engage in commerce; it is phrased in terms of the power to regulate commerce, tout court.  The commerce being regulated here is the sale and consumption of health care services.  The Necessary and Proper clause permits Congresss to adopt any needful regulation to effectuate its regulatory scheme for that interstate market.

you don't have to believe me (I know you won't) - read Justice Scalia's concurrence in Raich.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2010, 07:05:50 PM
I found the part about inactivity being activity and direct taxation not all that persuasive.

Elaborate?  ;)

QuoteBTW, what is a capitation tax?

A direct tax of a flat amount per person (per head).
Apparently the legislation gets around this by imposing the tax on AGI (income) but then capping it at a very low amount.  Analytically this is very close to a capitation tax and arguably amounts to an artful dodge, but the direct taxation clause is kind of a constitutional anachronism and the Court is not likely to bend over to knock out the law on this basis.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

jimmy olsen

It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
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1 Karma Chameleon point