The Vatican is haunted----by Satan! OMG

[ulmont]

I think it's cute when people believe in Satan.  I mean, much more so than in God.

Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal?   

No. :discordian: :luciferian:

Pretty sure the Satanists believe in God too.

[Martinus]

I think it's cute when people believe in Satan.  I mean, much more so than in God.

Don't you have to sort of take those two as a package deal?   

No. :discordian: :luciferian:

Pretty sure the Satanists believe in God too.

That's nice. Good that I wasn't referring to Satanists though.

[Caliga]

No. :Jews:

How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?

[The Brain]

No. :Jews:

How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?

Take your goy logic elsewhere plz.

[Malthus]

No. :Jews:

How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?

He isn't. He is never mentioned in Genesis.

It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).

In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy  . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity. 

[Caliga]

It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).

In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy  . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.

Wow, that's interesting.  Must be the gnostic influence on early Christianity or something.

[Razgovory]

No. :Jews:

How is that possible when Satan is the primary antagonist in the Book of Genesis?

He isn't. He is never mentioned in Genesis.

It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).

In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy  . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.

I always thought that was a strange story when I was a kid.  Snakes don't eat dust.  And what would a snake with legs look like?

[ulmont]

what would a snake with legs look like?

A lizard.

[Malthus]

It is a purely Christian thing to identify the serpent in the Eden story as "satan" (an indentification that makes no sense, as it is obvious that the serpent story is a "just-so" story about how snakes came to have no feet and why people hate snakes).

In the OT, Satan is a bit player in the Book of Job, essentially a devil's advocate, or prosecutor of humanity (God is the judge) - a sort of heavenly Barrister Boy  . He's certainly not a co-equal sort of anti-deity as in Christianity.

Wow, that's interesting.  Must be the gnostic influence on early Christianity or something.

I've heard it was the influence of Manicheism (they were an offshoot of Zorastrianism and believed in a dualistic sort of diety - a good god and a bad god).

For interest, here's the bit of Genesis often cited as proof of the devil's malign influence:

1Now(A) the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
   
   He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You[a] shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" 2And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3but God said,(B) 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" 4(C) But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit(D) and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her,(E) and he ate. 7(F) Then the eyes of both were opened,(G) and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool[c] of the day, and the man and his wife(H) hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"[d] 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid,(I) because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said,(J) "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said,(K) "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14The LORD God said to the serpent,

   "Because you have done this,
   cursed are you above all livestock
   and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
   and(L) dust you shall eat
   all the days of your life.
15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
   and between your offspring[e] and(M) her offspring;
(N) he shall bruise your head,
   and you shall bruise his heel."

16To the woman he said,

   "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
   (O) in pain you shall bring forth children.
(P) Your desire shall be for[f] your husband,
   and he shall(Q) rule over you."

17And to Adam he said,

   "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
   and have eaten of the tree
(R) of which I commanded you,
   'You shall not eat of it,'
(S) cursed is the ground because of you;
   (T) in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
   and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your face
   you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
   for out of it you were taken;
(U) for you are dust,
   and(V) to dust you shall return."

Jews take this literally, and state that the snake in the story was an actual, literal snake - indeed, the phrase "the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made" seems pretty unequivocally to state as much. The snake does his thing and as a result, God curses men, women - and snakes.

Because you have done this,
   cursed are you above all livestock
   and above all beasts of the field

Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.

[ulmont]

Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.

Nothing in Genesis, no.  Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

[Malthus]

Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.

Nothing in Genesis, no.  Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Yeah, but Jews, in general, find the Book of Revelations about as religiously persuasive as any other really bad Acid trip written up. 

In short, this whole construction of the Devil thingie is a purely Christian concept. Jews don't go in for it and never have - it smacks of less than stringent monotheism, the biggest no-no in Judaism.

[The Brain]

monotheism

Of all the fucking people you can worship. Jews really have crap for taste.

[ulmont]

Yeah, but Jews, in general, find the Book of Revelations about as religiously persuasive as any other really bad Acid trip written up. 

Sounds about right. 

[Malthus]

monotheism

Of all the fucking people you can worship. Jews really have crap for taste.

Well, at least there is no question: Mono saves. 

[Caliga]

Christians believe that "the serpent" is actually the Devil in the guise of a serpent. There is nothing in the text to hint that this is actually the case.

Nothing in Genesis, no.  Explicitly stated in the Book of Revelations, mind you.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

I wish the whole Bible read like the Book of Revelations.  It's like God decided to ask Iron Maiden to write the final book or something.