Homosexuality in the Bible: David and Jonathan

[crazy canuck]

From a review:

http://www.straight.com/article/the-pagan-christ-by-tom-harpur

Harpur was a Rhodes scholar and divinity professor, so it's odd to find his book chock full of factual flubs. He reports that the Egyptian name Iusu, supposedly the root of  Jesus , can be traced to 18,000 BC. But writing doesn't predate the fourth millennium. A god crucified was depicted around 300 BC, he writes. The image dates from six centuries later; regarding Christian origins, the BC/AD thing isn't a fussy detail. The list of mistakes is longer than this review.

There are other sources coveringing his other moonbat claims.

The Georgia straight?

?

You should know what you are relying on before you link it.  The Georgia Straight is a local rag that reports mainly on the local band scene and is filled with personal adds that would make Grallon blush. 

[Malthus]

It's true that the Temple Mount is very hard to work on (and under), and there very well could be relevant finds there (though note that the temple is ascribed to Solomon, not David).  But the rest of the land of Israel and Jerusalem itself has to be one of the most heavily and extensively excavated and analyzed places on the face of the earth.  It is theoretically possible that David's kingdom consisted of one single monumental structure now hidden under the Temple Mount, surrounded by a material cultural wasteland, but it is not the most convincing working hypothesis to adopt.

Not at all. You are forgetting what I said upthread about the fact that the archaeological evidence for even known and established Kings of Israel is scanty in the extreme.

People get the impression (not saying you specifically, but it's something I've noticed) that the "tels" of the Near East are like orderly layer cakes - you did down to the "Iron age" layer, and there's the stuff. Look in "level 3b" or whatever and you have King David, or should.

From my experience, nothing is further from the truth. People lived there, and the best and easiest source of material is - the buildings already there. Everything that can be re-used, is re-used, dug into, incorporated into new buildings, etc. - often, which are promptly burned down by someone else (and anything usable again re-used). Some bits are easy to decern, because the builders used a distinctive "style" - the Herodian walls for example. There is nothing to indicate that David, if he existed, was a builder of originality.

The way bits are dated is often by a combination of relating known styles of pottery found in situ, or by dating destruction layers occuring above where the artifacts are found - this only gives you the youngest date, not the oldest, of course. How can one tell whether "bit of carved stone set into rubble wall' was originally carved for something built by someone named "David"?

A survival of material with writing that can reliably be dated to any one individual - even someone as prominent as a king - is, in fact, most unusual.

The Tel Dan Stele itself is a classic example - broken, used to build something else, which was then burned down.

The inscription has been dated to the 9th or 8th centuries BCE. The 8th-century limit is determined by a destruction layer identified with a well-documented Assyrian conquest in 733/732 BCE. Because that destruction layer was above the layer in which the stele fragments were found, it is clear that it took place after the stele had been erected, then broken into pieces which were later used in a construction project at Tel Dan, presumably by Hebrew builders. It is difficult to discern how long before that Assyrian conquest these earlier events took place.

So it is not that the rest of Israel is or was in the time of David "a material cultural wasteland", so much that it is difficult to determine what, if any, remains can be attributed to identify a particular individual. We *do* know from the OT that it is *alleged* that he had his capital city in Jerusalem; if there reliably *lacked* remains datable to him, that would be indicative - if it were not for the fact that Jerusalem was continually subject in spades to the churning I've described above.

I do know that some archaeologists are claiming some remains found there are those of David's time, but I'm somewhat skeptical.

[Razgovory]

From a review:

http://www.straight.com/article/the-pagan-christ-by-tom-harpur

Harpur was a Rhodes scholar and divinity professor, so it's odd to find his book chock full of factual flubs. He reports that the Egyptian name Iusu, supposedly the root of  Jesus , can be traced to 18,000 BC. But writing doesn't predate the fourth millennium. A god crucified was depicted around 300 BC, he writes. The image dates from six centuries later; regarding Christian origins, the BC/AD thing isn't a fussy detail. The list of mistakes is longer than this review.

There are other sources coveringing his other moonbat claims.

The Georgia straight?

?

You should know what you are relying on before you link it.  The Georgia Straight is a local rag that reports mainly on the local band scene and is filled with personal adds that would make Grallon blush.

You may have noticed that I can't link the pages of the book directly to this website.  So I have to rely on second hand sources.

[ulmont]

Doesn't give the 18,000 years part, but the specific Iusa -> Jesus from Egypt claim is made.

I do recall the Iusa name link being used.  But 18,000?  Sounds like the second hand critic is as bad as Raz's quesitoning.

Actually, now that I reread my link (History News Network), it does give the 18,000 years claim.

[Jaron]

If the Jews could build mystical things like the Ark and part entire oceans with but a wave of the hand, why did they not use these super powers in WW2?

The only person who even tried was Magneto and all he did was fuck up a fence.

[Razgovory]

If the Jews could build mystical things like the Ark and part entire oceans with but a wave of the hand, why did they not use these super powers in WW2?

The only person who even tried was Magneto and all he did was fuck up a fence.

Didn't have to.  There are still Jews around, but Nazi Germany is gone.

[Jaron]

The cream of Jewish society is ashes, my friend. That isn't a victory.

[Razgovory]

The cream of Jewish society is ashes, my friend. That isn't a victory.

Survival is a victory for the Jewish people.  It's a victory they've enjoyed when their enemies have not.  In the end, it's the one that really counts.

[Jaron]

I wasn't aware that Germans, Neo Nazis, Anti-semites or even Persians had disappeared from the world, old boy.

For that matter, the Egyptians seem to express a desire to collect their wayward slaves.

[The Minsky Moment]

If the Jews could build mystical things like the Ark and part entire oceans with but a wave of the hand, why did they not use these super powers in WW2?

Who do you think designed the atom bomb?

[Warspite]

The cream of Jewish society is ashes, my friend. That isn't a victory.

The cream of Jewish society is in New York.

[The Minsky Moment]

I do know that some archaeologists are claiming some remains found there are those of David's time, but I'm somewhat skeptical.

There is a stone wall in Jerusalem discovered several years ago and attibuted by the finder to the Davidic period.  The dating is contested, and the claim is complicated by what appear to be political motivation (the dig was sponsored by a political think tank).

[Malthus]

I do know that some archaeologists are claiming some remains found there are those of David's time, but I'm somewhat skeptical.

There is a stone wall in Jerusalem discovered several years ago and attibuted by the finder to the Davidic period.  The dating is contested, and the claim is complicated by what appear to be political motivation (the dig was sponsored by a political think tank).

Yup, my point exactly.

There may have been a davidic citadel on the site, but if so, it was probably carted away to build subsequent structures; even if it wasn't it will be hard to tell.

Without some sort of engraving, it is extremely difficult or even impossible to state with any certainty that "rubble backed wall X" was built by, or even in the time of, historic figure Y - unless the builders used some sort of unique style (as Herod did).

All you can do is to attempt to date it, and this is often not an easy task.