UK-Israel relations hit the rocks over Dubai assanation

[grumbler]

That's because it's easier to do (or to try - the rockets aren't terribly effective) than, say, a big propagandistic attack on something important to Israeli identity, or an assassination of a prominent Israeli.  But I think all things being equal they wouldn't choose to kill random Israelis - even if that meant more deaths - they'd want to do something bigger.

Disagree.  Killing random Israelis is much more effective as a terror tactic than killing specific Israelis.  While I would agree that Hamas would sooner kill a Mossad agent than a random Israeli, I would think they would rather kill a random Israeli than one whose ID was stolen by Mossad.  The latter is explicable and hence not as terrifying.

[Sheilbh]

That's because it's easier to do (or to try - the rockets aren't terribly effective) than, say, a big propagandistic attack on something important to Israeli identity, or an assassination of a prominent Israeli.  But I think all things being equal they wouldn't choose to kill random Israelis - even if that meant more deaths - they'd want to do something bigger.

Disagree.  Killing random Israelis is much more effective as a terror tactic than killing specific Israelis.  While I would agree that Hamas would sooner kill a Mossad agent than a random Israeli, I would think they would rather kill a random Israeli than one whose ID was stolen by Mossad.  The latter is explicable and hence not as terrifying.

I disagree I think that these people would be useful targets because if they didn't know and they're killed then it's sending a message that, I suppose, what Mossad touches turns to dust.  While if Hamas believe they did know that their identities were being used then it's the same as the IRA targeting British civil servants in Northern Ireland.

And I think that targeting something associated with Mossad is more terrifying than a random attack such as a rocket.  The precision is scary but also the ability to pull something like that off (I mean I think the idea of Hamas assassinations in themselves would be scary) it's, I suppose, the propaganda of the deed.  One of the more important IRA attacks in the seventies was the assassination of Lord Mountbatten, he had very little to do with Ireland in his career.  The purpose was simply to make a statement.

I think that while Hamas probably won't target any of these people if they got a chance to kill them I think they'd definitely take it, either as Mossad dupes (in which case they are trying to hit at Mossad's reputation) or as being complicit in the Hamas assassination (in which case they're trying to send a message of what happens with people who help Mossad in any way).

[grumbler]

I disagree I think that these people would be useful targets because if they didn't know and they're killed then it's sending a message that, I suppose, what Mossad touches turns to dust.  While if Hamas believe they did know that their identities were being used then it's the same as the IRA targeting British civil servants in Northern Ireland.

And I think that targeting something associated with Mossad is more terrifying than a random attack such as a rocket.  The precision is scary but also the ability to pull something like that off (I mean I think the idea of Hamas assassinations in themselves would be scary) it's, I suppose, the propaganda of the deed.  One of the more important IRA attacks in the seventies was the assassination of Lord Mountbatten, he had very little to do with Ireland in his career.  The purpose was simply to make a statement.

I think you are waaaay over-analyzing this.  Hamas and other terrorist groups operate under the concept that terror is their weapon, not assassination per se.  They don't forgo assassination, of course, but neither do they employ it deliberately.

Lord Montbatten was targeted as a public figure, not as a dupe for British intelligence, so I see no parallels here.  The Hamas equivelent would be the assassination of a senior retired Israeli military figure (preferably related by bllod to a high-level Israeli politician).  Of course, Hamas would be morons to try to duplicate the PR disaster that was the Montbatten assassination...

I think that while Hamas probably won't target any of these people if they got a chance to kill them I think they'd definitely take it, either as Mossad dupes (in which case they are trying to hit at Mossad's reputation) or as being complicit in the Hamas assassination (in which case they're trying to send a message of what happens with people who help Mossad in any way).

I'm afraid I don't understand this statement at all.  Hamas kills its targets.  Hamas types don't wander around with guns looking for targets of opportunity.  If they don't target these people, they will not kill them (except incidental to a terrorist attack aimed at random civilians).  And, as I note above, Hamas targets random civilians for the most part, and Israeli troops for the rest.

[Sheilbh]

I think you are waaaay over-analyzing this.  Hamas and other terrorist groups operate under the concept that terror is their weapon, not assassination per se.  They don't forgo assassination, of course, but neither do they employ it deliberately.

The IRA, numerous communist terrorist groups, a number of groups in India and, of course the anarchists, have all used assassination as a weapon within a more general terrorist campaign.  I think that Islamists like Hamas are as likely to try especially if rocket attacks are seen to deliver diminishing results and as attacking Israel itself becomes more difficult.  I think we simplify terrorism at our peril.  If groups like anarchists a century ago, the RAF, the IRA and others can use ideas like the propaganda of the deed or a provocation strategy I think it more than likely that Islamist groups will too and we should be wary of that.  For example the attack on the golden mosque in Samarra seems an example of both provocation and propaganda.

Lord Montbatten was targeted as a public figure, not as a dupe for British intelligence, so I see no parallels here.  The Hamas equivelent would be the assassination of a senior retired Israeli military figure (preferably related by bllod to a high-level Israeli politician).  Of course, Hamas would be morons to try to duplicate the PR disaster that was the Montbatten assassination...

I agree it's an imperfect analogy - I think the better one is the IRA attacks on civil servants throughout the 70s and the 80s.  But Mountbatten was attacked not because of his association with Ireland or anything that he'd done but simply as a symbol of the reach and the power of the IRA.

[Neil]

One of the more important IRA attacks in the seventies was the assassination of Lord Mountbatten, he had very little to do with Ireland in his career.  The purpose was simply to make a statement.

The assassination of Lord Mountbatten served to ensure that a terrible retribution will fall upon the Irish people, when I am ready.

[The Brain]

"Mountbatten" lol gay name changers

[Agelastus]

I agree it's an imperfect analogy - I think the better one is the IRA attacks on civil servants throughout the 70s and the 80s.  But Mountbatten was attacked not because of his association with Ireland or anything that he'd done but simply as a symbol of the reach and the power of the IRA.

While I don't disagree his assassination was meant to be a symbol for the IRA, since they killed him almost literally in their own back yard it didn't say anything about their reach. It would have been far more symbolic to have assassinated him in or near one of the seats of British power.

[Neil]

"Mountbatten" lol gay name changers

He didn't change his name.  It was changed for him.

[Agelastus]

"Mountbatten" lol gay name changers

He didn't change his name.  It was changed for him.

His father did have the choice of "Battenhill" as an alternative. I know which one I prefer.

[Berkut]

Breaking promises is bad, in the same way that gentlemen do not read each other's mail. Gentlemen also do not use spies and assassins.

Indeed. The problem here is that they messed up the part where you make sure that you can maintain at least a fig leaf of this fiction.

[Savonarola]

Now the big guns are coming out:

EU condemns passport use in Dubai killing 

EU foreign ministers in Brussels have "strongly condemned" the use of forged European passports in the assassination of Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

The statement made no direct reference to Israel, whose secret services are widely accused of having carried out last month's killing in Dubai.

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman met some foreign ministers on the sidelines of the meeting.

Mr Lieberman has reiterated there is "no proof" of Israel's involvement.

"There is no proof Israel is involved in this affair, and if somebody had presented any proof, aside from press stories, we would have reacted," Mr Lieberman said in a statement from his office.

"But since there are no concrete elements, there is no need to react."

His comments followed the EU statement which said: "The killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai raises issues which are profoundly disturbing.


  We spent most of the time talking about the issue of the fraudulent use of British passports, and the profound concern that exists not just in Britain but all over Europe about this incident.


'More UK passports linked to killing' 
"We strongly condemn the use of fraudulent EU member states' passports and credit cards acquired through the theft of EU citizens' identities."

French President Nicolas Sarkozy also "unreservedly condemned" the assassination during a press conference with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, news agency AFP said.

Mr Mabhouh was killed in Dubai by a team who had entered the country on assumed identities belonging to British, Irish, French and German citizens.

Israeli meeting

The foreign ministers of those countries have been questioning Mr Lieberman about Israel's role in the assassination, in private meetings on Monday.

After meeting Mr Lieberman, UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband said he had "set out for the foreign minister the seriousness of the issue as far as Britain was concerned".

"We spent most of the time talking about the issue of the fraudulent use of British passports, and the profound concern that exists not just in Britain but all over Europe about this incident," he said.

In another development on Monday, UK Foreign Office minister Chris Bryant said another two British passports had been linked to the assassination, bringing the total to eight.


Mr Mabhouh was murdered in a Dubai hotel room, police say
The EU statement did not mention it by name, but Mossad, Israel's secret service, is widely accused of being behind the killing.

The assassins, some disguised in wigs and moustaches, were filmed following Mr Mabhouh, on Dubai's extensive CCTV network.

He was killed in his hotel room and an autopsy report said he had been electrocuted and then suffocated.

It has emerged that the British citizens whose identities were stolen also hold Israeli citizenship.

Six British Israeli citizens are to be given new passports by the British embassy in Jerusalem, it was announced on Sunday.

The British embassy said it was the first step to clearing their names, which are now on an Interpol wanted list.

Police in Dubai have also indicated there could be further revelations to come about the assassination.

Some of the estimated 18-strong hit team could have entered the country using diplomatic passports, Lt Gen Dhahi Khalifan Tamim told reporters.