Drug users, to me!

[garbon]

People often have no real idea what drugs they have taken - what is sold as drug X may well be drug Y.

I would ask why do people even bother with drugs then, but I suppose I don't really need to.

This strikes me as a strange response.

[viper37]

The problem lies in the interpretation of "self-induced intoxication".

If someone gets drunk in a bar, that is clearly "self-induced". But what if someone spikes their drink with PCP, without their knowledge? Is that "self-induced"?

What if, in Berkut's fact situation, they intend to take drug X but were really given drug Y? Isn't that the same as having your drink spiked?

A spiked drink is not self-induced.  I'm pretty sure there has been courtcases on this.

However, using drugs and then claiming you're not responsible of your actions... it depends on the judge.  There was a case in Quebec of a man who smoked cannabis and had a car accident where he killed someone.  He raised the point that he was under the influence of cannabis and he was addicted to the drug in his defense. IIRC, he won the first battle, but lost on appeal.  Or the opposite...

Imho, you do know you are consuming an illegal drug for wich, as Malthus said, there really is no sure way of knowing what you get.  So you are taking a deliberate risk while in full control of yourself.  There shouldn't be any defense for that.

[viper37]

Angel's Trumpet, which is an herb can cause some messed up effects.  I remember reading about this idiot who made a tea from it and his mother later found him wandering around with blood pouring frmo his mouth and crotch. He cut out his tongue and castrated himself and suffered a permanent psychotic break. 

So, the possiblities are endless.

remind me again why we should legalize drugs?

[viper37]

This strikes me as a strange response.

I understand why people would want to ski off the trail in some mountain, I get that.
I get base jumping, shark diving, all that stuff.

But drug uses always seemed totally irrational, in the sense that you never know what you get.  Smoke pot?  It's been dipped in PCP, but you didn't know.  It contains dried dog shit, but you don't know that either.  Want some cocaine?  Yeah, sure... pure cocaine will make your nose bleed, so they cut the coke with crushed glass to make sure your nose really bleed.

Seems silly to me.

[ulmont]

Angel's Trumpet, which is an herb can cause some messed up effects.  I remember reading about this idiot who made a tea from it and his mother later found him wandering around with blood pouring frmo his mouth and crotch. He cut out his tongue and castrated himself and suffered a permanent psychotic break. 

So, the possiblities are endless.

remind me again why we should legalize drugs?

If you run down Angel's Trumpet, the problem there is that there can be a wide variation in potency between plants, etc.  Get a legal product, and it can be standardized and therefore safer (plus, everyone will be just smoking weed then anyway).

[Barrister]

But drug uses always seemed totally irrational, in the sense that you never know what you get.  Smoke pot?  It's been dipped in PCP, but you didn't know.  It contains dried dog shit, but you don't know that either.  Want some cocaine?  Yeah, sure... pure cocaine will make your nose bleed, so they cut the coke with crushed glass to make sure your nose really bleed.

Seems silly to me.

It isn't very rational, but it's understandable.  It makes you feel good.  Really good.  It has some long-term health impacts, but how often does that stop people (fast food industry is still doing well).  The risk of contaminated drugs are there, but honestly fairly remote.

Until you reach the point where you're addicted, and it becomes really, really hard to stop.

[garbon]

I understand why people would want to ski off the trail in some mountain, I get that.
I get base jumping, shark diving, all that stuff.

But drug uses always seemed totally irrational, in the sense that you never know what you get.  Smoke pot?  It's been dipped in PCP, but you didn't know.  It contains dried dog shit, but you don't know that either.  Want some cocaine?  Yeah, sure... pure cocaine will make your nose bleed, so they cut the coke with crushed glass to make sure your nose really bleed.

Seems silly to me.

How is the latter group sillier than the group that you "understand"? After all, while there are supposedly standards for the first, that doesn't mean that you will always know "what you will get." Drugs are just another way of having fun / feeling good...although a method that is not regulated as they are illegal*.

*leaving aside "recreational" use of prescription drugs as those are generally regulated.

[garbon]

It isn't very rational, but it's understandable.  It makes you feel good.  Really good.  It has some long-term health impacts, but how often does that stop people (fast food industry is still doing well).  The risk of contaminated drugs are there, but honestly fairly remote.

Until you reach the point where you're addicted, and it becomes really, really hard to stop.

To be honest, wanting to feel good seems like a rational goal. You can't always choose the means.

[Barrister]

It isn't very rational, but it's understandable.  It makes you feel good.  Really good.  It has some long-term health impacts, but how often does that stop people (fast food industry is still doing well).  The risk of contaminated drugs are there, but honestly fairly remote.

Until you reach the point where you're addicted, and it becomes really, really hard to stop.

To be honest, wanting to feel good seems like a rational goal. You can't always choose the means.

It's not particularily rational because it's pretty universally agreed that using drugs (in particular hard drugs) tend to reduce overall happiness in the long term.  As does alcohol use, eating fatty food, not exercising, etc.

[garbon]

It's not particularily rational because it's pretty universally agreed that using drugs (in particular hard drugs) tend to reduce overall happiness in the long term.  As does alcohol use, eating fatty food, not exercising, etc.

Who says that it has to be a long-term strategy?

[Barrister]

It's not particularily rational because it's pretty universally agreed that using drugs (in particular hard drugs) tend to reduce overall happiness in the long term.  As does alcohol use, eating fatty food, not exercising, etc.

Who says that it has to be a long-term strategy?

Addiction.

[Malthus]

The problem lies in the interpretation of "self-induced intoxication".

If someone gets drunk in a bar, that is clearly "self-induced". But what if someone spikes their drink with PCP, without their knowledge? Is that "self-induced"?

What if, in Berkut's fact situation, they intend to take drug X but were really given drug Y? Isn't that the same as having your drink spiked?

A spiked drink is not self-induced.  I'm pretty sure there has been courtcases on this.

However, using drugs and then claiming you're not responsible of your actions... it depends on the judge.  There was a case in Quebec of a man who smoked cannabis and had a car accident where he killed someone.  He raised the point that he was under the influence of cannabis and he was addicted to the drug in his defense. IIRC, he won the first battle, but lost on appeal.  Or the opposite...

Imho, you do know you are consuming an illegal drug for wich, as Malthus said, there really is no sure way of knowing what you get.  So you are taking a deliberate risk while in full control of yourself.  There shouldn't be any defense for that.

It's a different sort of risk.

Taking a lot of booze when you are a bad drunk and I agree, you cannot blame anyone but yourself.

Take what you think is a drug not known for having a bad effect, and getting an entirely different drug - that's a different issue.

[Malthus]

Angel's Trumpet, which is an herb can cause some messed up effects.  I remember reading about this idiot who made a tea from it and his mother later found him wandering around with blood pouring frmo his mouth and crotch. He cut out his tongue and castrated himself and suffered a permanent psychotic break. 

So, the possiblities are endless.

remind me again why we should legalize drugs?

Many plant & fungus products that cause bad effects are not "illegal" per se, because they are common weeds; also, no-one in their right mind would take them, because their effects are highly dangerous and/or unpleasant.

See for example Amanita Muscaria - a known (if rather unpleasant) hallucinogen. Or Jimson Weed (also known as "loco weed" for obvious reasons), even worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimson_weed

Generally, the better for you and more pleasant plant products tend to be illegal, the scary harsh ones they often don't bother with - knowing full well no-one will do them voluntarily more than once.

[viper37]

It isn't very rational, but it's understandable.  It makes you feel good.  Really good.  It has some long-term health impacts, but how often does that stop people (fast food industry is still doing well).  The risk of contaminated drugs are there, but honestly fairly remote.

Until you reach the point where you're addicted, and it becomes really, really hard to stop.

It's just that at some point, you try some shit, you try to kill everyone you love 'cause you're on some kind of buzz, you end up in psychiatric emergency, and the day after, you do it again.

I don't get the "feel good" part.

[Barrister]

It isn't very rational, but it's understandable.  It makes you feel good.  Really good.  It has some long-term health impacts, but how often does that stop people (fast food industry is still doing well).  The risk of contaminated drugs are there, but honestly fairly remote.

Until you reach the point where you're addicted, and it becomes really, really hard to stop.

It's just that at some point, you try some shit, you try to kill everyone you love 'cause you're on some kind of buzz, you end up in psychiatric emergency, and the day after, you do it again.

I don't get the "feel good" part.

'but it's a rare exception - you'll never let yourself get that high again, plus your body starts to feel really crappy when you go through withdrawl...'