UK-Israel relations hit the rocks over Dubai assanation

[Fate]

Britain is not an ally, it is merely a tool. You're a fool to think the Jews believe otherwise.

I said "seen by us as something of" not "is" - a perception that comes as much as anything from the current "us against them" attitude the Western world is adopting towards Islam.

The Jews are clearly part of the "them" rather than the "us." It's not the Palestinians who are selling advanced Western technology to the Chicoms.

[Martinus]

Britain is not an ally, it is merely a tool. You're a fool to think the Jews believe otherwise.

I said "seen by us as something of" not "is" - a perception that comes as much as anything from the current "us against them" attitude the Western world is adopting towards Islam.

The Jews are clearly part of the "them" rather than the "us." It's not the Palestinians who are selling advanced Western technology to the Chicoms.

That's only because Palestinians haven't yet discovered: Alphabet.

[grumbler]

Anyway, having reread Tamas' post, he got a pass because his comment was part of a humourous line referencing the British problems with Iran. A joke, in other words. Your line was read as being purely derogatory and hostile to Jews in general, and given the language you employed it is not hard to see why.

You're talking about a forum where people regularly use words like "chinaman" or "nigger", and engage in lengthy tirades about genociding the muslims.

You are talking like the forum was a person.

Some people here do use the words "nigger" and "chinaman" in a highly self-conscious way, but that has nothing to do with Marti's antisemitic remarks.  "Genociding the Muslims" is the policy of a poster everyone here recognizes is a whackjob in many respects.

Marti asked why I though the comment "Fucking Jews think they can do anything because their American fuckbuddies will protect them" was an inane troll, and I told him.  His moaning and wease4ling don't change the point:  his comment was an inane troll.

All that "I didn't know that 'Israel' and 'Jew' meant different things in English" can be shown as a lie by a simple search for his previous use of the terms; he does not use them interchangeably.

No rocket science here, and no excusing antisemitic remarks because someone else makes comments you don't like.

[Agelastus]

Again, seems to me something of a bagatelle. Given that you later state that the "ally" status extends to the entire Western world, that would eliminate using pretty well any convincing false first-world papers - something that I assume most spies and assassins use.

Breaking promises is bad, in the same way that gentlemen do not read each other's mail. Gentlemen also do not use spies and assassins.

As for the sloppiness of the operation - none of the agents were caught and the guy was assassinated, without any innocents killed in the cross-fire. Things could be a whole lot sloppier.

Since I used the "western world against Islam" phrase as a point explaining why they might seen to be as an ally in Britain, your "bagatelle" comment lacks any substance. Perhaps specifying Russian as an alternative was a mistake, however. Let me be clear then. I would be personally offended if they used British, American, Canadian, Australian or New Zealand passports (due to the intelligence links of the countries in question.) Anyone else is fair game. I am in general offended because they were stupid enough to let themselves be identified.

Breaking promises is as bad in the world of espionage as it is in the world of gentlemen. The KGB and the CIA both understood this even at the height of the Cold War.

As for the sloppiness comment? Apart from actually managing to kill the guy, its difficult to see how much sloppier they could have been. They were caught on camera acting as a very suspicious group, which probably led directly back to the identification of the assassins as entering the country on British passports. If that's not sloppy, I don't know what is.

[Razgovory]

I wouldn't have given a damn if they used Russian passports, for example. I have no problem with Israel killing a member of Hamas (although I will probably be jumped upon for that.)

But Israel has promised in the past not to use our passports, and is also seenby us as something of an ally. What they have done (or appear to have done) is both impolite and offensive. You don't break promises or abuse an ally in this fashion.

Not to mention associating Britain with such an apparently sloppy operation is insulting.

Again, seems to me something of a bagatelle. Given that you later state that the "ally" status extends to the entire Western world, that would eliminate using pretty well any convincing false first-world papers - something that I assume most spies and assassins use.

Breaking promises is bad, in the same way that gentlemen do not read each other's mail. Gentlemen also do not use spies and assassins.

As for the sloppiness of the operation - none of the agents were caught and the guy was assassinated, without any innocents killed in the cross-fire. Things could be a whole lot sloppier.

I suspect that Israelis weren't bothered by the cameras to much.  In fact they might have wanted emphasis the point that if you piss off the Mossad there is no safe place for you.

[Martinus]

Anyway, if someone wants to challenge the Brits over adopting double standards when it comes to other nations fucking them other, one should not point to Russia (where the reaction was demonstrably forceful) but the Saudis.

[Malthus]

Again, seems to me something of a bagatelle. Given that you later state that the "ally" status extends to the entire Western world, that would eliminate using pretty well any convincing false first-world papers - something that I assume most spies and assassins use.

Breaking promises is bad, in the same way that gentlemen do not read each other's mail. Gentlemen also do not use spies and assassins.

As for the sloppiness of the operation - none of the agents were caught and the guy was assassinated, without any innocents killed in the cross-fire. Things could be a whole lot sloppier.

Since I used the "western world against Islam" phrase as a point explaining why they might seen to be as an ally in Britain, your "bagatelle" comment lacks any substance. Perhaps specifying Russian as an alternative was a mistake, however. Let me be clear then. I would be personally offended if they used British, American, Canadian, Australian or New Zealand passports (due to the intelligence links of the countries in question.) Anyone else is fair game. I am in general offended because they were stupid enough to let themselves be identified.

Breaking promises is as bad in the world of espionage as it is in the world of gentlemen. The KGB and the CIA both understood this even at the height of the Cold War.

As for the sloppiness comment? Apart from actually managing to kill the guy, its difficult to see how much sloppier they could have been. They were caught on camera acting as a very suspicious group, which probably led directly back to the identification of the assassins as entering the country on British passports. If that's not sloppy, I don't know what is.

Seems to me something we will have to agree to disagree on. Once the choice has been made to employ assassins to kill people, seems to me that using false papers is so much less of an issue as to be rather insignificant.

For example, should the UK have used false neutral country passports to sneak assassins in to kill high-ranking Nazis during WW2, I don't think the UK spymasters would have been terribly contrite if that use had been discovered.

If you cannot imagine an operation going more wrong than this, then your imagination is not engaged. I can see lots worse happening. 

[Agelastus]

I suspect that Israelis weren't bothered by the cameras to much.  In fact they might have wanted emphasis the point that if you piss off the Mossad there is no safe place for you.

You do that by killing the guy, not by getting your face plastered over television screens worldwide.

[Barrister]

Britain is not an ally, it is merely a tool. You're a fool to think the Jews believe otherwise.

I said "seen by us as something of" not "is" - a perception that comes as much as anything from the current "us against them" attitude the Western world is adopting towards Islam.

Age, you come and go from Languish, so perhaps you didn't get the memo:

Fate is pure, 100% troll.  He is not interested in discussing matters.  Instead he posts whatever he thinks will get a reaction.

Please do not bother responding to him.

[Agelastus]

Seems to me something we will have to agree to disagree on. Once the choice has been made to employ assassins to kill people, seems to me that using false papers is so much less of an issue as to be rather insignificant.

It's stupid to piss on people you are probably going to have to work with in the near future, let alone break promises in the intelligence game. You seem to disagree with me on this, but then I believe you object to the use of assassins, which I do not.

For example, should the UK have used false neutral country passports to sneak assassins in to kill high-ranking Nazis during WW2, I don't think the UK spymasters would have been terribly contrite if that use had been discovered.

Depends on the neutral. We wouldn't have been stupid enough to use American passports in 1939-41, for example, but I doubt we'd have been very contrite about using Portuguese. The main point is that it was pretty stupid using British passports, and then even more imbecilic to be caught using them!

If you cannot imagine an operation going more wrong than this, then your imagination is not engaged. I can see lots worse happening.

Are you just being an idiot, or are you saying that "sloppy" is an exact equivalent of "lots worse". The operation could have gone worse (if, say, the target had been suspicious or aware enough to shoot), but its difficult to see how they could have carried it out more sloppily except by failing to kill the guy.

[Agelastus]

Britain is not an ally, it is merely a tool. You're a fool to think the Jews believe otherwise.

I said "seen by us as something of" not "is" - a perception that comes as much as anything from the current "us against them" attitude the Western world is adopting towards Islam.

Age, you come and go from Languish, so perhaps you didn't get the memo:

Fate is pure, 100% troll.  He is not interested in discussing matters.  Instead he posts whatever he thinks will get a reaction.

Please do not bother responding to him.

Ah, thanks.

I shall endeavour to refrain from countering his misrepresentations and wilful misreadings in future then.

[Ed Anger]

I'm 50% troll, 25% fecal matter and 25% water.

[Barrister]

I'm 50% troll, 25% fecal matter and 25% water.

Constipated again?

[Ed Anger]

I'm 50% troll, 25% fecal matter and 25% water.

Constipated again?

Just full of shit as usual.

[Warspite]

It works like this:

Britain will make angry noises about this because it's part of the game. Mossad agents used fake British passports. As I write this, there are SIS agents out there with fake Lebanese, Chilean, American etc etc passports.

Governments know this is going on and it is all part of the game. But the other part of the game is that if anyone is caught, then a stink is raised, diplomatic measures are taken - in this case, the extreme sanction of demanding the Israeli ambassador comes in for a chat down the road in an office next to the Locarno Rooms.

This is one of those cases where the rule is observed in the breach: we are angry that the Israelis have broken rules in doing this, but at the same time the people in the know, know that this happens. Such is the world of intelligence.

To summate: storm in a teacup.