Andrew Sullivan: US should institute a 2 state solution by force

[Ed Anger]

Euro troops would join forces with hamas to shove jews into ovens.

[Viking]

We already have a two-state solution.

Actually it is a three state solution, with Israel, Gaza (Hamas) and the West Bank (Fatah).

Careful what you wish for . . .

I take it your next avatar will be "Daniel Pipes" then?

[Fate]

Euro troops would join forces with hamas to shove jews into ovens.

I like the cut of your jib.

[The Minsky Moment]

We already have a two-state solution.

Actually it is a three state solution, with Israel, Gaza (Hamas) and the West Bank (Fatah).

Careful what you wish for . . .

I take it your next avatar will be "Daniel Pipes" then?

My statement is descriptive, not proscriptive.

[Sheilbh]

This isn't even remotely like a "civil war". There is no conflict within Israel; Israel in no way resembles Lebanon or former Yugoslavia. What this is, is Israel occupying bits of other countries (Gaza=Egypt; the WB=Jordan) that contain populations so fractious and ungovernable that their former owners don't want them back.

I don't think that Gaza can be considered part of Egypt - in fact the real blockade of Gaza is taking place because of the Egyptian, not the Israeli government's policy.  Similarly I don't think even the Jordanians now buy into Abdullah's goal of a greater Jordan.  Israel is occupying land that presents a fundamental problem for Israel as either a Jewish state or as a democracy - I think both are worth defending and ultimately require a two state solution.

Having UN, UK, Euro, US soldiers (take yer pic) patroling Gaza will do exactly nothing to create "trust" and "compliance" by Hamas, and why should it? What exactly will the UK, US or UN  do if Hamas does what it always does? Threaten to root them out with massive force? I doubt it.

No, it's as problematic as, for example, trying to contain Hezbollah or intervening in any number of African states to enforce an international peace.

Edit:  Incidentally I'd note that Sullivan says he's only moving towards this position and my view would be that I'd support an international force operating in support of a peace deal, especially in Gaza, at least until the PA could build up the security forces necessary.

[grumbler]

This isn't even remotely like a "civil war". There is no conflict within Israel; Israel in no way resembles Lebanon or former Yugoslavia. What this is, is Israel occupying bits of other countries (Gaza=Egypt; the WB=Jordan) that contain populations so fractious and ungovernable that their former owners don't want them back. 

Agre about the civil war aspect - the mere assertion of it strikes me as somewhat suspicious.

West Bank and Gaza were never formally part of any state, which is one of the problems.  Their former owners were the Brits, who held them as part of the mandate.  They  are, as you note, hot potatoes that have burned everyone who tried to hold on to them.

[Barrister]

This isn't even remotely like a "civil war". There is no conflict within Israel; Israel in no way resembles Lebanon or former Yugoslavia. What this is, is Israel occupying bits of other countries (Gaza=Egypt; the WB=Jordan) that contain populations so fractious and ungovernable that their former owners don't want them back. 

Agre about the civil war aspect - the mere assertion of it strikes me as somewhat suspicious.

West Bank and Gaza were never formally part of any state, which is one of the problems.  Their former owners were the Brits, who held them as part of the mandate.  They  are, as you note, hot potatoes that have burned everyone who tried to hold on to them.

They were part of the Ottoman Empire. 

[Sheilbh]

Agre about the civil war aspect - the mere assertion of it strikes me as somewhat suspicious.

I mean it's like a civil war in that it presents the same challenges and problems that a civil war has, as opposed to an interstate wa, in sustaining a peace deal.

[Neil]

They were part of the Ottoman Empire. 

Well, they were a bit annoying to the Sultan late in the Ottoman period.  The Ottomans were happy to sell vast swathes of modern Israel to the Zionists, but found the idea of an independent territory there to be understandably unpleasant.

[HisMajestyBOB]

I too am sick of the Israelis for their contempt for the interests of their most important ally, their continuation of brutalizing colonization of the West Bank, their shameless ethnic engineering in East Jerusalem, their pulverization of Gaza, the direct manipulation of domestic American politics by their ambassador, and on and on. And, yes, I'm also sick of the war crimes and theocratic insanity of Hamas, and the lame passive-aggression of the PA, and the inability of the Palestinian leadership to prepare for actual governance as opposed to the victimized preening and theatrics and violence they prefer to the difficult compromises required if we are to move forward.

This part I agree with, but the solution makes no sense. If you're sick of both of them, why the hell would you want to militarily intervene to forcibly separate them? Just cut them both loose and let them kill each other.

[Admiral Yi]

This part I agree with, but the solution makes no sense. If you're sick of both of them, why the hell would you want to militarily intervene to forcibly separate them? Just cut them both loose and let them kill each other.

Yeah, Andy didn't think it through.  If there's nothing but downside you dump your losses and walk away.

[grumbler]

Agre about the civil war aspect - the mere assertion of it strikes me as somewhat suspicious.

I mean it's like a civil war in that it presents the same challenges and problems that a civil war has, as opposed to an interstate wa, in sustaining a peace deal.

I think the challenge is more like that of the indeterminate border variety than the civil war variety, but if by "civil war" you mean African tribal-based civil wars due to the artificiality of the borders, then I suppose the analogy might have some utility.

[grumbler]

This part I agree with, but the solution makes no sense. If you're sick of both of them, why the hell would you want to militarily intervene to forcibly separate them? Just cut them both loose and let them kill each other.

Yeah, Andy didn't think it through.  If there's nothing but downside you dump your losses and walk away.

I don't think there is any thinking reflected in this piece.  It seems purely polemical to me.

[Siege]

We already have a two-state solution.

Actually it is a three state solution, with Israel, Gaza (Hamas) and the West Bank (Fatah).

Careful what you wish for . . .

Four states solution, actually.

Israel, Jordan, Gaza, and the West Bank.

[CountDeMoney]

I see where Sullivan's coming from (generally I like him) not least because this issue is more like a civil war than a normal war.

Anti-semitic Europeans would, because it validates Palestinian terrorism as "not really terrorism".