Divine Inspiration or Divine Dictation?

[Faeelin]

From a spiritual perspective and the experiences and thoughts are very relevent to today.  I think the transformation of understanding the Jews had returning from the Babylonian exile and processing their experiences, and the sudden change of Jewish thought from a religion bound by a tribe and a specific location-very traditional-to a universal and unlimited idea of God and humanity is very powerful from both a spiritual point of view and a historical one.  Some things about the human experience are pretty eternal...but yes I think it is silly to try to think and act as if we were a member of an ancient near eastern tribe.  But that is scarcely the point, IMO.

Heh. If you don't think the point is to act like a Near Eastern tribe, I can introduce you to a friend who doesn't think she can get divorce even if abused.

[grumbler]

This is like the Battlestar Galactica thread.

Now that you mention it... 

[Neil]

Indeed.  Who do you believe is greater:  Yourself, or those ancient prophets who the god allegedly spoke to?

Given that i don't believe in the latter, not a contest.  If I was religious, though, I would have to say that charting my own course towards salvation was a better bet than following the course of people from a different time and culture, whose answers to "as you would wish others to do unto you" would be so very different.  Especially since I wouldn't be all that sure that they had, indeed, obtained "salvation."

That's impossible to say.  If you were religious, you'd be accepting that some larger, more powerful force (a god) has sovereignty over you.  Is it really that much of a stretch to think that your willingness to submit to authority would extend to a priesthood or a particular doctrine?  After all, virtually all religious people do so.

[grumbler]

[That's impossible to say.  If you were religious, you'd be accepting that some larger, more powerful force (a god) has sovereignty over you.  Is it really that much of a stretch to think that your willingness to submit to authority would extend to a priesthood or a particular doctrine?  After all, virtually all religious people do so.

That is, as you note, impossible to say.  It is like asking if I would submit to humans being ruled by aliens if they landed tomorrow and promised universal happiness if all humans just submitted to their superior wisdom.

In the end, it is just Neils all the way down, if you start down this path.

[Neil]

[That's impossible to say.  If you were religious, you'd be accepting that some larger, more powerful force (a god) has sovereignty over you.  Is it really that much of a stretch to think that your willingness to submit to authority would extend to a priesthood or a particular doctrine?  After all, virtually all religious people do so.

That is, as you note, impossible to say.  It is like asking if I would submit to humans being ruled by aliens if they landed tomorrow and promised universal happiness if all humans just submitted to their superior wisdom.

In the end, it is just Neils all the way down, if you start down this path.

Not a perfect analogy.  After all, you'd still be you if aliens landed tomorrow.  Your thought processes would still work the same way.  However, Religious grumbler would think a different way, to the point where it would be difficult for you to say what he would do, especially because of your extremely close relationship with the current you.  You're very invested in your current thought processes since, after all, they're yours.

[Magnus]

Do you have a reason for why people should not study the Bible other then they might be lead astray.  Do you think that no one other then the Clergy should read it?  Do you think the Clergy infallable?

Honeslty by that point I was pretty much out of any arguments, I'm not really used to having to a give a "real" faith based argument, it's a little bit hard.
Anyway try going back to my comment on page one and read the part grumbler didn't quote, actually I'll qoute the relevent part to you.
"Or follow the path that most logic based arguments about god lead to: "I don't know."
Sometimes followed with, "It doesn't matter, I'll live a good live regardless""
Hopefully Things make a bit moresense now, if they don't I've stopped caring.

[Sheilbh]

In what respect are clergy closer to God?  Is this true of all clergy of all the faiths in the world or only some?

I think only the Catholic ones - in some sense - given that that's part of Catholic doctrine.

Most others are more learned than most people, which is a good thing as you can emphasise what matters and what doesn't matter so much.  Especially if you have a few centuries of tradition and thinking to back you up.

Some are just more charismatic than most people.

[DontSayBanana]

Doctrinally? I was always taught that full weight should only be given to quotes from the Godhead; also, Paul and John were apparently fond of addressing churches in code, so their words specifically needed to be dissected a little further.

[grumbler]

Not a perfect analogy.  After all, you'd still be you if aliens landed tomorrow.  Your thought processes would still work the same way.  However, Religious grumbler would think a different way, to the point where it would be difficult for you to say what he would do, especially because of your extremely close relationship with the current you.  You're very invested in your current thought processes since, after all, they're yours.

I guess my point is that I can imagine you as the Supreme Being a lot easier than I can imagine a non-responsive entity as such.  You respond to posts.  That is the minimum I would expect of a deity (and, thus, DGullible sacrifices godhood ).

[citizen k]

How come so many Asian-Americans are devout Christians?

Like 90% of the ones I've known have been hardcore Protestants of some flavor.

I suspect because they want to fit into American society so they convert to Christianity.  It is the most rabid fundamentalist groups that recruit the most aggressively and thus more likely to be the ones to grab them up.  But that is just a guess.

I don't think that's it. Many Asians immigrate to America because of their Christianity. There's large Christian communities all over Asia but I think they appreciate the freedom to worship that America affords.

[citizen k]

As an agnostic and a European, I find you to be on the slippery slope of going to Bible Study and therefore being ridiculed by a lot of people.

Kevin

He'll just have to refrain from debating religion with a Grande Ecole alum.

[Berkut]

Everyone in the room is already a devout believer and the point of the class is neither to convince or cast doubt in anyone's mind about the validity of what's written in the Bible.

A surprising number of free-thinkers are born of intelligent, often innocent, questions raised in Bible study.

And hence Magnus' admonition not to engage in such questions.

The argument that one should not be allowed or should be discouraged from engaging in thinking about God absent a "trained professional" there to make sure you don't think too much is one of my very favorite religious memes.

Fucking Luther - he messed the entire thing up, what with translating the bible and all that nonsense!

[Martinus]

How come so many Asian-Americans are devout Christians?

Like 90% of the ones I've known have been hardcore Protestants of some flavor.

Cultural inferiority complex coupled with misunderstanding of our culture. Asians often take concepts originating from the Western civilization that we, by now, have grown to consider rather lame and embarrassing, and consider them uber cool. Just look at Japan.

[Martinus]

Aren't you just cherrypicking if you don't demand that women veil themselves? I recognize that suddenly most Protestants become interpretationalists when some crazy shit like that comes up, but still.

I have always thought it's funny how much of the Bible is clearly the work of the Ancient Near East, and yet people try to apply it to the modern day.

It is only cherrypicking if you take the Bible to be some sort of unerrant word of God.  But any reasonable person with any familiarity with the Bible and its history knows that is false.  You might believe that it was written under some sort of divine inspiration.

From a spiritual perspective and the experiences and thoughts are very relevent to today.  I think the transformation of understanding the Jews had returning from the Babylonian exile and processing their experiences, and the sudden change of Jewish thought from a religion bound by a tribe and a specific location-very traditional-to a universal and unlimited idea of God and humanity is very powerful from both a spiritual point of view and a historical one.  Some things about the human experience are pretty eternal...but yes I think it is silly to try to think and act as if we were a member of an ancient near eastern tribe.  But that is scarcely the point, IMO.

The thing is, people like him are perfectly happy to rant about those prohibitions that do not concern them (e.g. saying that homosexuality is a sin) but those that could somehow affect their life are "interpreted out".

I agree with Faelin that it is cherry picking. If you think Bible is the word of God, then you are a hypocrite and a sinner if you are not more conservative than Fred Phelps. If not, then it is a collection of rather ludicrous (or, at best, anachronistic) prohibitions and tribal stories, written in a dreary and tedious language by half-literate shepherds, and should be treated as such (rather than considered "one of the most important books").

[Martinus]

Do you have a reason for why people should not study the Bible other then they might be lead astray. 

Because it is a contradictory, illogical piece of shit that anyone with two brains cells could easily figure out, thus being led astray?