Fake Canadian Lawyer Charged With "Witchcraft"

[DontSayBanana]

Again, unless priests who do not actually believe in God are also saying they hold mass "for entertainment purposes", this is double standard.

You missed my point; priests who do not actually believe in God and continue to practice are subject to their religion's own discipline.  Offerings typically go to facilities expenditures and priests and pastors are paid out of trust funds established by their presbytery/diocese/whatever and do not pay the religious official directly.  If money is taken directly from the religious follower and given to the priest directly, then they absolutely can be taken to court for fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=52e_1232618904 (first Catholic fraud scandal I came across)

[Malthus]

I think it is just silly to hold this as a separate crime - unless the penalty for "witchcraft fraud" is smaller than the penalty for ordinary fraud (which I doubt).

The section has a bunch of detailed provisions decribing various sorts of scams - like fraudulently obtaining a drink by pretending to leave your luggage in a place. I have no idea why the drafters felt in necessary to spell things out in such detail, it does seem a trifle redundant. Maybe there was some value in having an exact section to cite, I dunno.   

[Martinus]

Again, unless priests who do not actually believe in God are also saying they hold mass "for entertainment purposes", this is double standard.

You missed my point; priests who do not actually believe in God and continue to practice are subject to their religion's own discipline.  Offerings typically go to facilities expenditures and priests and pastors are paid out of trust funds established by their presbytery/diocese/whatever and do not pay the religious official directly.  If money is taken directly from the religious follower and given to the priest directly, then they absolutely can be taken to court for fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=52e_1232618904 (first Catholic fraud scandal I came across)

So you are saying that if I commit fraud but make the money go to the organisation I work for and not to my pocket, this is alright? 

Nor did I know that "being subject to your religion's own discipline" exempts one from criminal law.

[Berkut]

It seems to me that the section could be improved by adding all sorts of faith healers and the like, regardless of religion; but there is no real impetus to change it because it is, as the article says, a section very seldom used.

What if I was trying to witchcraft the gay away?

[Martinus]

like fraudulently obtaining a drink by pretending to leave your luggage in a place.

You guys really have weird laws. Here that kind of "casuistic" drafting wouldn't pass the muster of proper legislation technique.

[Ed Anger]

It seems to me that the section could be improved by adding all sorts of faith healers and the like, regardless of religion; but there is no real impetus to change it because it is, as the article says, a section very seldom used.

What if I was trying to witchcraft the gay away?

The wiccans might be worth something then.

[Strix]

Wasn't Marty comparing the "gay rights" movement as being similar to the various religious movements in the US in another thread?

Does that mean we can charge him with "witchcraft"? 

[Malthus]

like fraudulently obtaining a drink by pretending to leave your luggage in a place.

You guys really have weird laws. Here that kind of "casuistic" drafting wouldn't pass the muster of proper legislation technique.

Here's the section I was citing:

364. (1) Every one who fraudulently obtains food, a beverage or accommodation at any place that is in the business of providing those things is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Presumption

(2) In proceedings under this section, evidence that the accused obtained food, a beverage or accommodation at a place that is in the business of providing those things and did not pay for it and

(a) made a false or fictitious show or pretence of having baggage,

(b) had any false or pretended baggage,

(c) surreptitiously removed or attempted to remove his baggage or any material part of it,

(d) absconded or surreptitiously left the premises,

(e) knowingly made a false statement to obtain credit or time for payment, or

(f) offered a worthless cheque, draft or security in payment for the food, beverage or accommodation,

is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof of fraud.

This is section 364. The "anti-Witchcraft" section immediately follows - s. 365.

[Admiral Yi]

How the fuck do you get free food or hotel rooms by pretending to have suitcases?

[crazy canuck]

I think Marty's point is how do you non-fraudulently practice sorcery.

It all has to do with intent.  Someone may ferverently believe that doing some kind of ritual will be beneficial but if it is all a scam then this section likely applies.

Where Marti goes wrong, often, is that he simply assumes that if people do not believe as he does then they are not only wrong but also a fraud. 

[crazy canuck]

How the fuck do you get free food or hotel rooms by pretending to have suitcases?

Dont know but at some point there was big enough of a problem to make it a criminal code offence.

[Valmy]

Again, unless priests who do not actually believe in God are also saying they hold mass "for entertainment purposes", this is double standard.

Um...if the psychic does her thing free of charge like Priests holding mass then they do not have to do it "for entertainment purposes only" it is only when they build their business around it that they need to understand they are not actually guaranteeing their powers are real.  I don't see the double standard.  If  a priest was charging for guaranteed miracles then suddenly he would open himself up for fraud as well.

[Malthus]

How the fuck do you get free food or hotel rooms by pretending to have suitcases?

I have ... absolutely no idea.

I'm assuming that there is some historical reason for that part, having to do with blocking off some (then) common scam.

[saskganesh]

How the fuck do you get free food or hotel rooms by pretending to have suitcases?

I have ... absolutely no idea.

I'm assuming that there is some historical reason for that part, having to do with blocking off some (then) common scam.

its probably related to some hotels not renting rooms unless you had luggage, and not requiring you to pay until you checked out.

so if you had fake baggage, you could swindle a free room, posing as a legitimate traveller. when you left the hotel, you would leave your empty bags behind in your room, so hotel staff would not think you were actually leaving.

hotel food would be part of the tab.

[Neil]

Well, I hope they use it to charge all the priests and rabbis whenever their prayers do not work, as well.

You missed the word "fraud" in all of that which requires intent.  Again.  Astounding.

Remember, he's not a real lawyer.