Obama Bows to Jap Emperor

[Ed Anger]

"Jap"?  Might as well put "nigger" in the title, too.

I meant nothing racist by it.  But while we're talking about it, your avatar has a racist anti-JapANESE image in it

Of course, when i say jap, i mean it. Fucking slopes.

I thought the gooks (Vietnamese variety) were slopes?  or is that a mroe general term?

They are all zipperheads to me.

[Ed Anger]

Yes, i'm mixing my racist insults.

[Jacob]

Seems natural enough to me that you'd bow.  It's not a bigger deal than shaking hands or whatever.

[Ed Anger]

You sneaky little batards aren't getting doodly shit from me, except maybe my name, rank, and Social Security number: Wood, Hollis P., Lumberjack, Social Security 106-43-2185.

[Admiral Yi]

As Viking said bowing is the done thing in Japan. Its just like shaking hands in the west.
If you had to dance a merry little jig upon meeting someone in American culture then the Emperor would be dancing a jig in that photo too. Its just diplomacy.

A hand shake is not freighted with cultural meaning about relative status.  It's a gesture between equals.

Do you think, in retrospect, that the first British ambassador to China (Lord Elgin??) should have gone ahead and polished the floor with his forehead as Chinese custom dictated?

[Josquius]

As Viking said bowing is the done thing in Japan. Its just like shaking hands in the west.
If you had to dance a merry little jig upon meeting someone in American culture then the Emperor would be dancing a jig in that photo too. Its just diplomacy.

A hand shake is not freighted with cultural meaning about relative status.  It's a gesture between equals.

Do you think, in retrospect, that the first British ambassador to China (Lord Elgin??) should have gone ahead and polished the floor with his forehead as Chinese custom dictated?

Totally different situation.
1: That clearly would have been a gesture of submission. kowtowing is nothing else. Bowing in Japanese culture is very different, its far more about respect and formality,
2: Totally different world situation where the Chinese actually did believe that they were the centre of the earth and that representatives of barbarian kings should pay homage to the emperor. I recall reading something from the time where he (it wasn't Elgin, can't recall who though) said he would agree to kowtow to the emperor if a mandarin of equal rank would do the same to the British king. They refused.
There is no doubt in what US-Japanese relations are these days. And that the Japanese would return the respect.




I think a large part of Obama bowing so low here is that he wasn't planning to but being faced with such a short man sort of pushed him that way in the moment. And given the space between the two he went down as best he could.

He looks rather silly bowing a lot on this video. Really OTT:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyD_e0Y7FQ

[Richard Hakluyt]

Elgin would have suggested a game of marbles.

But he wasn't the chap sent out, that was Lord Macartney.

[Admiral Yi]

Elgin would have suggested a game of marbles.

But he wasn't the chap sent out, that was Lord Macartney.

Got the first name right at least.

[derspiess]

Seems natural enough to me that you'd bow.  It's not a bigger deal than shaking hands or whatever.

Really?  It seems natural to you to bow that deeply?

[Admiral Yi]

Totally different situation.
1: That clearly would have been a gesture of submission. kowtowing is nothing else. Bowing in Japanese culture is very different, its far more about respect and formality,
2: Totally different world situation where the Chinese actually did believe that they were the centre of the earth and that representatives of barbarian kings should pay homage to the emperor. I recall reading something from the time where he (it wasn't Elgin, can't recall who though) said he would agree to kowtow to the emperor if a mandarin of equal rank would do the same to the British king. They refused.
There is no doubt in what US-Japanese relations are these days. And that the Japanese would return the respect.

I think a large part of Obama bowing so low here is that he wasn't planning to but being faced with such a short man sort of pushed him that way in the moment. And given the space between the two he went down as best he could.

He looks rather silly bowing a lot on this video. Really OTT:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyD_e0Y7FQ

1. Like I said before, there are different degrees of bowing in Japan.  There is a bow between equals (something like 15 degrees IIRC).
2. And do we find that the Chinese started to change their attitude towards foreigners in general and the British in particular as a result?  We do not.  The ambassador's gesture was a symbolic representation of how the British viewed the relationship.

[Josquius]

1. Like I said before, there are different degrees of bowing in Japan.  There is a bow between equals (something like 15 degrees IIRC).
2. And do we find that the Chinese started to change their attitude towards foreigners in general and the British in particular as a result?  We do not.  The ambassador's gesture was a symbolic representation of how the British viewed the relationship.

1: Its not so simple as that. I was serious when I said that foreigners are often advised not to bother with the bowing as they would fuck it up. It goes mjuch further than just superior/equals/inferiors. Theres all sorts of subtle variations for different situations, levels of formality and other weird alien things. Age is an important factor- though the US president and Japanese Emperor are equals the Emperor remains the elder so should be given more respect; this doesn't mean the president is inferior to him, its just respect.
Also I believe there is something to Obama messing up- he fills the gap between himself and the emperor too well.
2: Doing it though would have been reaffirming it though. Maybe he should have did it just to get his foot in the door; when the Chinese start asking for tribute the British could have just laughed them away. It would have been dishonest though, he didn't feel he could do it, he felt a genuine obligation to the British king and only him.
And what on earth do you mean 'The ambassador's gesture was a symbolic representation of how the British viewed the relationship.'?

[Admiral Yi]

1: Its not so simple as that. I was serious when I said that foreigners are often advised not to bother with the bowing as they would fuck it up. It goes mjuch further than just superior/equals/inferiors. Theres all sorts of subtle variations for different situations, levels of formality and other weird alien things. Age is an important factor- though the US president and Japanese Emperor are equals the Emperor remains the elder so should be given more respect; this doesn't mean the president is inferior to him, its just respect.
Also I believe there is something to Obama messing up- he fills the gap between himself and the emperor too well.
2: Doing it though would have been reaffirming it though. Maybe he should have did it just to get his foot in the door; when the Chinese start asking for tribute the British could have just laughed them away. It would have been dishonest though, he didn't feel he could do it, he felt a genuine obligation to the British king and only him.
And what on earth do you mean 'The ambassador's gesture was a symbolic representation of how the British viewed the relationship.'?

Dig up a pic of the Japanese emperor bowing deeply to a commoner that is older than he is and I will concede the point.

(On the style points Obama also messes up by combining the hand shake with the deep bow.)

I mean the ambassador's actions were determined by how the British public would view it, not by the impact it would have on Chinese perceptions of the relationship.

[Hansmeister]

1. Like I said before, there are different degrees of bowing in Japan.  There is a bow between equals (something like 15 degrees IIRC).
2. And do we find that the Chinese started to change their attitude towards foreigners in general and the British in particular as a result?  We do not.  The ambassador's gesture was a symbolic representation of how the British viewed the relationship.

1: Its not so simple as that. I was serious when I said that foreigners are often advised not to bother with the bowing as they would fuck it up. It goes mjuch further than just superior/equals/inferiors. Theres all sorts of subtle variations for different situations, levels of formality and other weird alien things. Age is an important factor- though the US president and Japanese Emperor are equals the Emperor remains the elder so should be given more respect; this doesn't mean the president is inferior to him, its just respect.
Also I believe there is something to Obama messing up- he fills the gap between himself and the emperor too well.
2: Doing it though would have been reaffirming it though. Maybe he should have did it just to get his foot in the door; when the Chinese start asking for tribute the British could have just laughed them away. It would have been dishonest though, he didn't feel he could do it, he felt a genuine obligation to the British king and only him.
And what on earth do you mean 'The ambassador's gesture was a symbolic representation of how the British viewed the relationship.'?

Can you show me a picture of any other head of State bowing to the Japanese emperor?  I think not

[Josquius]

Dig up a pic of the Japanese emperor bowing deeply to a commoner that is older than he is and I will concede the point.

(On the style points Obama also messes up by combining the hand shake with the deep bow.)

I mean the ambassador's actions were determined by how the British public would view it, not by the impact it would have on Chinese perceptions of the relationship.

1: A quick google brings up one of him visiting Saipan and meeting war veterans.


2: Aha.
Well, as I said different situations. He would have been totally fine with bowing to the emperor if a Chinese counterpart would also show such respect to the British king. The entire point of his embassy was to try and get some sort of understanding between China and the UK as opposed to the weird relations of the time.
There is no possibility these days that anyone sane would think this proves Obama is making the US subserviant to Japan though. Even if he full on kowtowed it would have just been a diplomatic faux pas, nothing binding.

[Admiral Yi]

15 degree bow!  Yi wins! Yi wins!