British Court To Define Jewishness

[Malthus]

Amusing.

So "you're not jewish enough because your mother wasn't born a jew nor converted in the correct temple" is a benevolent form of discrimination.

I wonder whether you believe this yourself, or if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Jewish enough for what? 

That's the problem - not the definition of "Judaism", but whether access to any particular institution should be granted to a "Jew", however defined.

Again, I expect such subtleties are beyond the grasp of a Swede. 

[The Larch]

Here's the judgement

http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/docs/uksc_2009_0105_judgmentV2.pdf

5-4 is reallly unusual (not least because the default number of judges is 7).

Incidentally, some of you may remember that I had a case before the House of Lords, which turned out to be its penultimate judgement before becoming the Supreme Court. A very solid 7-0 victory.

Hey Gups, it's been a long time! How are you doing? Great to see that you're still hanging around.

[LaCroix]

There is nothing "hypothetical" about Jewish ethnicity.

What do you mean by this?

That pretty well all Jews view Jewishness as an ethnic identity and not merely as a religion. There is nothing "hypothetical' about it - it is a simple fact.

Ask any Jew - "is it possible to be an atheist Jew?" Something like 99% would answer "of course". Something like half the Jewish population of Israel is atheist or agnostic, no-one questions whether or not they are Jewish.

i had an argument with a friend who lives in my apartment where he postulated that to be a jew you had to believe in the faith. i think he forgot all those times he called himself a jew even though he's openly an atheist. this was the same guy that said that rush limbaugh was the leader of the republicans and that one could have an iq of 140 and still have down syndrome. 

[grumbler]

There is nothing "hypothetical" about Jewish ethnicity.

What do you mean by this?

"Hypothetical" is a term with a specific meaning.  Malthus is correct.

The concept of ethnicity for Jews is completely artificial and completely arbitrary, but has nothing to do with a hypothesis.

But then, the concept of all ethnicity is artificial and mostly arbitrary.  Jews just add the conversion angle to make theirs completely arbitrary.

[grumbler]

When someone converts, they become Jewish. "Ethnicity" isn't the same as "race", you can *become* a different ethnicity by going through the right hurdles but you cannot *become* Black if you are White.

What a wonderfully convenient definition of "race" 

So, "ethnicity' has nothing necessarily to do with genetics. The rules are, you are Jewish if born of a Jewish mom or if you convert. [/quote]
And a wonderfully convenient definition of "ethnicity." 

There is nothing "racist" in acknowledging the differences between ethnicities; the "racism" comes in when one expresses hatred for another ethnicity or race (really "racism" is bigotry specific to "race', but let's use it in the broader meaning).

Jews pronouncing a definition of what it means to be Jewish isn't "racism"; Jews expressing hatred or contempt for non-Jewish ethnicities is "racism".

You are aware that these convenient definitions are not widely shared, right?

Again, there are two relevant meanings to the term "discrimination":

One is essentially 'telling the difference between X and Y". That is what Jews are here doing.

The other is  a perjorative meaning, as in "racial intolerance and discrimination".

Actually, that is the same definition.  It is just used in different contexts.

Racism is generally held to be the belief in "races;" that one can tell important things about a person's character by the degree to which they do or do not possess characteristics by which one distinguishes between "races."  Some (e.g. Merriam-Websters) insist that racism consists only of the belief that race is the primary determinant of characteristics (i.e. that one can say "niggers are lazy" without being racist so long as one thinks that their laziness is mostly due to their being men) but I have never bought that distinction.

Ethnicity is, of course, a very flexible term.  I would argue that Jews are as ethnic as Catholics; the only difference is that atheist Jews are called Jews and atheist Catholics are called "lapsed Catholics."  The whole "Jewish by descent from a Jewish mother" thing is, in my mind, just a reminder that Judaism retains far more neolithic beliefs than Catholicism does.  I think it is quite quaint, but am rather suspicious of those who actually think it is important.

[Malthus]

What a wonderfully convenient definition of "race" 

And a wonderfully convenient definition of "ethnicity." 

Huh? Race is based on some allegation of genetic difference (granted, mostly fictive). It is a subset of ethnicity.

You are aware that these convenient definitions are not widely shared, right?

I would say they are widely shared. 

Claiming that my ethnicity is different from yours isn't "racist".

Actually, that is the same definition.  It is just used in different contexts.

Racism is generally held to be the belief in "races;"

No, it isn't. 

"Racism" is the belief that one's race is a, or the, important measure of the person.

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination.

or

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Please produce a definition from some reputable source that states that "racism" is the mere belief in different races.

that one can tell important things about a person's character by the degree to which they do or do not possess characteristics by which one distinguishes between "races."  Some (e.g. Merriam-Websters) insist that racism consists only of the belief that race is the primary determinant of characteristics (i.e. that one can say "niggers are lazy" without being racist so long as one thinks that their laziness is mostly due to their being men) but I have never bought that distinction.

That's nonsense. One can say that those with dark skin are "Blacks" or "of the Black race" without thereby being "racist"; you aren't imputing any particular characteristics to said "race".

Saying "Blacks are lazy" does impute such characteristics and this is, indeed, racist.

Ethnicity is, of course, a very flexible term.  I would argue that Jews are as ethnic as Catholics; the only difference is that atheist Jews are called Jews and atheist Catholics are called "lapsed Catholics."  The whole "Jewish by descent from a Jewish mother" thing is, in my mind, just a reminder that Judaism retains far more neolithic beliefs than Catholicism does.  I think it is quite quaint, but am rather suspicious of those who actually think it is important.

Fact is that Jews have different beliefs than Catholics, "neolithic" or not. That is why Judaism is an "ethnicity' and Catholicism isn't.

Myself, I do not impute any superiority or inferiority to that difference; if you must then you must.

[dps]

What a wonderfully convenient definition of "race" 

And a wonderfully convenient definition of "ethnicity." 

Huh? Race is based on some allegation of genetic difference (granted, mostly fictive). It is a subset of ethnicity.

That's backwards.  Ethnicity is a sub set of race, at least as the terms are normally used.  Usually, I don't care for semantic arguments, but in this instance, I have to agree with grumbler--you're just using definitions that are convenient for you and ignoring the common usage.

You are aware that these convenient definitions are not widely shared, right?

I would say they are widely shared. 

Claiming that my ethnicity is different from yours isn't "racist".

Actually, that is the same definition.  It is just used in different contexts.

Racism is generally held to be the belief in "races;"

No, it isn't. 

"Racism" is the belief that one's race is a, or the, important measure of the person.

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination.

or

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Please produce a definition from some reputable source that states that "racism" is the mere belief in different races.

that one can tell important things about a person's character by the degree to which they do or do not possess characteristics by which one distinguishes between "races."  Some (e.g. Merriam-Websters) insist that racism consists only of the belief that race is the primary determinant of characteristics (i.e. that one can say "niggers are lazy" without being racist so long as one thinks that their laziness is mostly due to their being men) but I have never bought that distinction.

That's nonsense. One can say that those with dark skin are "Blacks" or "of the Black race" without thereby being "racist"; you aren't imputing any particular characteristics to said "race".

Saying "Blacks are lazy" does impute such characteristics and this is, indeed, racist.

Ethnicity is, of course, a very flexible term.  I would argue that Jews are as ethnic as Catholics; the only difference is that atheist Jews are called Jews and atheist Catholics are called "lapsed Catholics."  The whole "Jewish by descent from a Jewish mother" thing is, in my mind, just a reminder that Judaism retains far more neolithic beliefs than Catholicism does.  I think it is quite quaint, but am rather suspicious of those who actually think it is important.

Fact is that Jews have different beliefs than Catholics, "neolithic" or not. That is why Judaism is an "ethnicity' and Catholicism isn't.

Say what?  Bhuddists, for example, have different beliefs than Catholics;  that doesn't make Bhuddism an ethnicity.  Plus, if having different beliefs is part of the definition of ethnicity, then the fact that Catholics have different beliefs than Jews would make Catholicism an ethnicity, too.   

[grumbler]

Huh? Race is based on some allegation of genetic difference (granted, mostly fictive). It is a subset of ethnicity.

"Race" is a subset of ethnicity?     I don't think even those who believe in races would accept that as a general rule.  They might hold that "Black Hispanic" is a subset of "Hispanic" but not that the "Negro race" is.

I would say they are widely shared. 

Er, no. 

Claiming that my ethnicity is different from yours isn't "racist".

Nor is claiming that your hair color is different.

No, it isn't. 

"Racism" is the belief that one's race is a, or the, important measure of the person.

Nice job cutting off the part of my post that says exactly this! 

Please produce a definition from some reputable source that states that "racism" is the mere belief in different races.

Please don't crop my quotes so that you can reinterpret them incorrectly and then feed back exactly the meaning I used for "belief in race" as an attempt to refute my claim.

That's nonsense. One can say that those with dark skin are "Blacks" or "of the Black race" without thereby being "racist"; you aren't imputing any particular characteristics to said "race".

If you mean by "of the Black race" something important besides skin color, then of course you are being racist; you yourself state that racism is "the belief that one's race is a, or the, important measure of the person."  If you think race isn't important, then why even mention it?  If you think it is important, then by your own definition you are racist.

Racism, of course, exists.  "Race" does not, except as a social construct.

Saying "Blacks are lazy" does impute such characteristics and this is, indeed, racist.

Yes.  That was my entire point in bringing up that example! 

Fact is that Jews have different beliefs than Catholics, "neolithic" or not. That is why Judaism is an "ethnicity' and Catholicism isn't.

Oh, lots of people have lots of different beliefs.  Some Jews have some beliefs about the ethnicity of Jews, and other have different beliefs.  Some Catholics think that Catholicism is important to their ethnicity, and some don't. Same thing goes for Jews.

Myself, I do not impute any superiority or inferiority to that difference; if you must then you must.

Me? I don't even recognize the differences.  People's beliefs are what they tell me, and ditto for their ethnicity and "race."  If person A tells me that person X is a Jew, and person X tells me that he isn't, then I impute only that person A has a belief, and person B has a belief.  Ditto if person A says person B isn't a Jew, and person B says that he is.  "Jewishness" is, to me, a matter of belief, whether discussing the Jewsishness of the belief-holder, or the Jewishness of a person the belief holder is referring to.

That is true for every ethnic and religious group and "race."  I don't belief in any of them a priori.

[Ed Anger]

Death to all the juice.

[Malthus]

That's backwards.  Ethnicity is a sub set of race, at least as the terms are normally used.  Usually, I don't care for semantic arguments, but in this instance, I have to agree with grumbler--you're just using definitions that are convenient for you and ignoring the common usage.

This makes no sense.

"Ethnicity" is the notion that there is some factor (it could be colour of skin, it could be descent from a supposed common ancestor, it could be a common language or culture) that unites people. "The Greek ethnicity".

"Race" is the notion that the important common characteristic is specifically an alleged genetic similarity - for example, "the White race". It is thus a more specific subset of the general category, "ethnicity".

While it is true that "races" are often larger groupings than "ethnicities", this is irrelevant. 

For example:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethnicity

Noun 1. ethnicity - an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"

"Racial or cultural ties". How on earth can "ethnicity" be a subset of "race"? The definition of "ethnicity" includes both "race" and more - cultural kinship.

Say what?  Bhuddists, for example, have different beliefs than Catholics;  that doesn't make Bhuddism an ethnicity.  Plus, if having different beliefs is part of the definition of ethnicity, then the fact that Catholics have different beliefs than Jews would make Catholicism an ethnicity, too.   

It is the content of Jewish beliefs that make Judaism an "ethnicity", not the fact of difference.

I am merely pointing this out, assuming that the reader has read the rest of this thread.

[Malthus]

"Race" is a subset of ethnicity?     I don't think even those who believe in races would accept that as a general rule.  They might hold that "Black Hispanic" is a subset of "Hispanic" but not that the "Negro race" is.

You completely misunderstand. See my reply to dps above.

"Ethicity" is the broader concept than "race". An "ethnic group" is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed; "race" is merely one of the markers of a common heritage.

That this marker is more assumed than real we agree.

Claiming that my ethnicity is different from yours isn't "racist".

Nor is claiming that your hair color is different.

No, it isn't. 

"Racism" is the belief that one's race is a, or the, important measure of the person.

Nice job cutting off the part of my post that says exactly this! 

Please produce a definition from some reputable source that states that "racism" is the mere belief in different races.

Please don't crop my quotes so that you can reinterpret them incorrectly and then feed back exactly the meaning I used for "belief in race" as an attempt to refute my claim.

That's nonsense. One can say that those with dark skin are "Blacks" or "of the Black race" without thereby being "racist"; you aren't imputing any particular characteristics to said "race".

If you mean by "of the Black race" something important besides skin color, then of course you are being racist; you yourself state that racism is "the belief that one's race is a, or the, important measure of the person."  If you think race isn't important, then why even mention it?  If you think it is important, then by your own definition you are racist.

Racism, of course, exists.  "Race" does not, except as a social construct.

I refuse to get into your usual complaints about being misinterpreted etc. I agree that race is a social construct. I do not agree that merely believing in the literal existence of this social construct is "racist".

It may be mistaken but it is not "racist".

Saying "Blacks are lazy" does impute such characteristics and this is, indeed, racist.

Yes.  That was my entire point in bringing up that example! 

Do you, or do you not, believe that the belief in the literal existence of "races" is "racist"?

Simple question.

Oh, lots of people have lots of different beliefs.  Some Jews have some beliefs about the ethnicity of Jews, and other have different beliefs.  Some Catholics think that Catholicism is important to their ethnicity, and some don't. Same thing goes for Jews.

I disagree. Jewish beliefs are fundamentally different from Catholic ones on this point.

Me? I don't even recognize the differences.  People's beliefs are what they tell me, and ditto for their ethnicity and "race."  If person A tells me that person X is a Jew, and person X tells me that he isn't, then I impute only that person A has a belief, and person B has a belief.  Ditto if person A says person B isn't a Jew, and person B says that he is.  "Jewishness" is, to me, a matter of belief, whether discussing the Jewsishness of the belief-holder, or the Jewishness of a person the belief holder is referring to.

That is true for every ethnic and religious group and "race."  I don't belief in any of them a priori.

Ethnic groups exist whether you choose to believe in them or not. This is one area where the subjective opinions of people create an objective reality.

[Valmy]

Oh, lots of people have lots of different beliefs.  Some Jews have some beliefs about the ethnicity of Jews, and other have different beliefs.  Some Catholics think that Catholicism is important to their ethnicity, and some don't. Same thing goes for Jews.

Um...this is one of the most primary and fundamental principals of Judaism.  Some Jews may choose not to believe it but it sorta goes on in the Torah, which I hear is a document related to Judaism in someway, that Jews are a people.  It is sort of like saying the Pope is not head of the Catholic Church because some Catholics believe he isn't.  It simply is ridiculous.

[Malthus]

Oh, lots of people have lots of different beliefs.  Some Jews have some beliefs about the ethnicity of Jews, and other have different beliefs.  Some Catholics think that Catholicism is important to their ethnicity, and some don't. Same thing goes for Jews.

Um...this is one of the most primary and fundamental principals of Judaism.  Some Jews may choose not to believe it but it sorta goes on in the Torah, which I hear is a document related to Judaism in someway, that Jews are a people.  It is sort of like saying the Pope is not head of the Catholic Church because some Catholics believe he isn't.  It simply is ridiculous.

Yup. Jews are a "people" in a way that Catholics are not.

I think what non-Jews have difficulty in understanding, mainly because of our Western obsession with race, is that a "people" need not necessarily have any alleged genetic component.

Rather than "race", think "tribe" or "nation". A person can be adopted into a "tribe" by going through the correct initiation rituals; think of some White guy who "goes native" and is adopted by the Hurons. Wiggers and Michael Jackson aside, you cannot join a different "race" once you have been pidgeon-holed (even though the markers of "race" are mostly arbitrary and socially-determined in the first place).

The notion that there is something inherently morally wrong about people divvying themselves up like this is, again, an artifact of Western obsessions about race and racism. Oddly. no-one complains about people self-identifying as Greek or German, even though nationalism has arguably done way more damage than racism.   

[Caliga]

I think I need to get a Court Jew to live in my house, so he can advise Princesca to stop disagreeing with my every statement. 

[Ed Anger]

I think I need to get a Court Jew to live in my house, so he can advise Princesca to stop disagreeing with my every statement.