British Court To Define Jewishness

[Maximus]

Gene pool.  When grabon drinks a martini that doesn't make him a WASP.

Ethnicity doesn't have anything to do with genes.

[Admiral Yi]

Ethnicity doesn't have anything to do with genes.

Nothing? OK, then I take it all back.

[Malthus]

I don't get your point. If Sammy Davis Jr. was a woman and had converted by Orthodox means, his kid would be "ethincally' as Jewish as the kid of someone descended from 100 generations of Rabbis.

Gene pool.  When grabon drinks a martini that doesn't make him a WASP.

Genes don't matter in the religious/"ethnic" definition of "Jew". A convert is considered 100% Jewish, and a child of a convert is considered "ethnically" Jewish by birth.

Race also doesn't matter (Ethiopian Jews or "Falashas" are considered 100% Jewish, in spite of being, well, Black).   

Perhaps 'Jew as ethnicity" is a trifle misleading, as most people are used to 'ethnicity" having a genetic component. Judaism isn't an "ethnicity" so much as a "tribe" (the difference being you can join a tribe).

[DGuller]

Gene pool.  When grabon drinks a martini that doesn't make him a WASP.

Ethnicity doesn't have anything to do with genes.

That's way too strong of a statement.  Ethnicities are formed by people living in the same geographical area and reproducing largely between themselves for many generations.  That kind of makes ethnicity genetical to some extent.

[Maximus]

Nothing? OK, then I take it all back.

Well they are related in that you usually get both from the same place-- your parents. And I guess if some ethnicity defined itself as being of a certain gene pool then it would be. Can't think of any such case offhand though.

[Maximus]

That's way too strong of a statement.  Ethnicities are formed by people living in the same geographical area and reproducing largely between themselves for many generations.  That kind of makes ethnicity genetical to some extent.

Yea, I would say they are parallel, they usually go together, but one does not depend on the other in most cases. See my post above.

[Admiral Yi]

Genes don't matter in the religious/"ethnic" definition of "Jew". A convert is considered 100% Jewish, and a child of a convert is considered "ethnically" Jewish by birth.

Race also doesn't matter (Ethiopian Jews or "Falashas" are considered 100% Jewish, in spite of being, well, Black).   

Perhaps 'Jew as ethnicity" is a trifle misleading, as most people are used to 'ethnicity" having a genetic component. Judaism isn't an "ethnicity" so much as a "tribe" (the difference being you can join a tribe).

If you consider Sammy Davis an ethnic Jew I think we are using the word differently.

[Malthus]

Genes don't matter in the religious/"ethnic" definition of "Jew". A convert is considered 100% Jewish, and a child of a convert is considered "ethnically" Jewish by birth.

Race also doesn't matter (Ethiopian Jews or "Falashas" are considered 100% Jewish, in spite of being, well, Black).   

Perhaps 'Jew as ethnicity" is a trifle misleading, as most people are used to 'ethnicity" having a genetic component. Judaism isn't an "ethnicity" so much as a "tribe" (the difference being you can join a tribe).

If you consider Sammy Davis an ethnic Jew I think we are using the word differently.

Well, he isn't, as I understand he converted.

His hypothetical kids (were he a woman, or in the case of a progressive sect that allows for patrilinial descent) would be.

And yes, "ethnic" has a different meaning when it comes to Jews and Judaism: it means Judaism by descent from a Jew (in most cases, a Jewish woman) - but "a Jew" could be a convert.

[Admiral Yi]

Well, he isn't, as I understand he converted.

His hypothetical kids (were he a woman, or in the case of a progressive sect that allows for patrilinial descent) would be.

And yes, "ethnic" has a different meaning when it comes to Jews and Judaism: it means Judaism by descent from a Jew (in most cases, a Jewish woman) - but "a Jew" could be a convert.

OK.

In your previous post you said children of converted mothers are considered ethnic Jews.  Who is it that is doing this considering?

[The Minsky Moment]

It's not quite that simple.

The problem is that the plaintiff (the kid) was *claiming* membership in the religion on the basis of an ethnic test, so it seems a bit odd for the very same plaintiff than to argue that the use of an ethnic test is inherently discriminatory.

No he's not.  He's claiming membership by descent and practice.  If Sammy Davis jr. had been a woman his child could claim membership by descent but obviously not by ethnic membership.

I agree with Malthus - I don't your distinction between "descent" and "ethnic membership".  It seems like you are confusing ethnic identity with genetics.  There are plenty of "ethnic Jews" with blue eyes.

Ethnicity is about a perceived common heritage.  An "outsider" can become part of the group by adoption (which is what a Jewish conversion really is) - once he or she does, then any descendent automatically becomes a member of the common group by virtue of whatever rule of ethnic identification by descent that community employs.

In your previous post you said children of converted mothers are considered ethnic Jews.  Who is it that is doing this considering?

The Jewish community itself.

[Admiral Yi]

The Jewish community itself.

Did the Jewish community ever put this opinion into written form?

[The Minsky Moment]

The Jewish community itself.

Did the Jewish community ever put this opinion into written form?

I think there is some Talmudic commentary on the concept, yes, but I can't cite chapter and verse.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Sammy Davis Jr question is not merely theoretical either.  The status of the Falashas (Ethiopian Jews) was an issue that had to be dealt with by the religious authorities in Israel relatively recently.  There was some question about whether they had to go through some kind of special ritual to deal with the fact that they were non-Talmudic and there had been interevening forced conversions to Christianity.  However, IIRC the majority view was that the Falashas were legit members of the House of Israel, notwithstanding some obvious genetic divergences.

[Capetan Mihali]

I think I see what Yi is getting at a little bit.  For instance, a while ago some religious Jewish relatives of mine adopted some non-white children, performed all the proper ceremonies (bris, bar mitzvah, etc), so they are entirely Jewish.  And yet, of course, that doesn't stop individual Jews (perhaps many) from seeing them as somehow less than "really" Jewish.

[The Minsky Moment]

And yet, of course, that doesn't stop individual Jews (perhaps many) from seeing them as somehow less than "really" Jewish.

That's a big no-no; as is often the case with religion, practice of individuals diverges from the dogma.

In any event, I think we are going a little far afield here.  In rendering its ruling about "inherent discrimination" the Court singled out the pratice of identifying membership in the faith on the basis of descent from the Jewish mother.  I.e. it is the Court itself that equated descent with the "ethnic test."  And that ruling (if accurately reported) seems odd for me because the plaintiff's initial claim to be a Jew was based on precisely the same criterion the Court found so offensive.